ScummVM IRC Log - 24 Nov 2014

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[04:11] <Xgates> hi guys
[04:12] <Xgates> I'm running 17" 1920x1080 rez, wondering how I can get scummvm to show in a higher resolution with out black borders, but fills the screen?
[04:13] <Xgates> also not in fullscreen but in a windows mode...
[04:13] <clone2727> Did you select the OpenGL graphics mode?
[04:13] <Xgates> yeah was playing with it, let me set it again,,, thx
[04:14] <Xgates> anything particually good for the render mode with opengl?
[04:14] <clone2727> What?
[04:14] <Xgates> Graphics Mode
[04:14] <Xgates> Render Mode
[04:14] <Xgates> :P
[04:15] <clone2727> Unless you want to run in EGA mode, I don't think you want to touch the render mode.
[04:15] <Xgates> OpenGL with default render mode makes for a very tiny gui window...
[04:15] <Xgates> ok
[04:16] <Xgates> I'd love to be able to get this to at least 800x600
[04:16] <clone2727> Then use 3x instead of OpenGL
[04:17] <Xgates> 3x causes a blackborder on bottom
[04:17] <Xgates> almost half the size of the screen...
[04:17] <clone2727> Without fullscreen?
[04:17] <Xgates> yeah
[04:17] <clone2727> What game?
[04:17] <Xgates> secret of monkey island
[04:18] <clone2727> I have no black border in windowed mode
[04:18] <Xgates> what OS you on? I compiled 1.7.0 in Slackware
[04:18] <clone2727> The OS is irrelevant, we pass it all to SDL
[04:18] <Xgates> hmm
[04:20] <Xgates> I'm letting the intro music play, before I'd hit 'esc' and when it started it had the border, I'll let it just go and see
[04:20] <Xgates> then take a screen if it does it again...
[04:21] <Xgates> yep same
[04:21] Action: Xgates uploads screen
[04:21] <Xgates> http://i.imgur.com/qAcSTYu.png
[04:21] <clone2727> That's the game UI.
[04:21] <Xgates> that's black border on the bottom normal?
[04:22] <clone2727> Is this your first time playing the game? :P
[04:22] <Xgates> yeah ic now hehe
[04:22] <Xgates> sorry guys... :(
[04:23] <Xgates> clone2727: what options give the cleanest graphics?
[04:23] <clone2727> That's completely the user's opinion
[04:24] <clone2727> I have zero filters on because the blur looks like shit, IMO
[04:24] <Xgates> hmm
[04:24] <Xgates> I just can't seem to get a bigger window size other than the 3x, is that the only one you can increase the window size?
[04:24] <clone2727> For now
[04:26] <Xgates> ahh wait my bad... AdvMAME3x seems cleaner
[04:26] <Xgates> same size too
[04:26] <blitter> clone2727: acquired the Mac version of MI. might sit down and play it soon
[04:26] <blitter> need something good to put onto this 1400c :P
[04:26] <Xgates> oh yeah, this one is nice and cleaner looking, not the jagged pixels look
[04:27] <clone2727> blitter: There's no AdLib. What a waste!
[04:27] <clone2727> (Says the guy with only the CD and Mac versions)
[04:28] <blitter> you and your adlib :P
[04:28] <clone2727> Damn straight.
[04:29] <Xgates> yeah reneder mode I don't see it changing anything, hmm...
[04:29] <blitter> too many people at work making references to it all the time. figure i'd better know what they're talking about. plus i hear it's a good game ;)
[04:30] <clone2727> Xgates: If the game doesn't support it, it won't change anything.
[04:30] <clone2727> blitter: Better 24 years late than never!
[04:30] <blitter> :P
[04:31] <Xgates> aspect ration correction gives me some more height...
[04:31] <Xgates> ratio...
[04:33] <Xgates> ha fullscreen quite nice... :P
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[04:35] <Xgates> btw how is HQ3x vs AdvMAME3x?
[04:35] <clone2727> Equally shitty :P
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[04:36] <fydo> personally I prefer the highest available integer scale
[04:37] <fydo> those lovely crisp pixels!
[04:38] <Lightkey> hmm, pixels
[04:39] <Xgates> so what default and opengl is to small on my resolution...
[04:39] <Xgates> to be honest the HQ3x and AdvMAME3x look real clean...
[04:39] <Xgates> errr typo I meant the default and opengl...
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[04:43] <fydo> got my Nexus Player in the mail this weekend!
[04:44] <fydo> going to test how well it works with ScummVM and its funny controller/remote thing
[04:46] <Xgates> ok so opengl you can drag the window, darn, opengl doesn't look very clean and crisp, a bit blurry actually...
[04:46] <Xgates> hmm
[04:47] <Lightkey> oh, Android on Intel Atom
[04:49] <fydo> yeah, also has the new "Android TV" subset of android
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[05:36] <fydo> hmm, looks like a few changes are needed before ScummVM will be recognised as an "Android TV" app and show up on the store/be launchable from the main OS
[05:37] <fydo> http://developer.android.com/training/tv/start/start.html
[05:37] <fydo> I'll play around with the manifest files and see if I can get it to work :)
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[07:04] <t0by> Hi sweethearts
[07:14] <fuzzie> g'morn
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[08:17] <DrMcCoy> http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/11/24/double-fine-layoffs/
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[08:21] <waltervn> morning
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[08:37] <Sir_Burpalot> There's an Android TV now?
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[08:37] <Sir_Burpalot> Look at Google copying Apple again... After what, 8 years?
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[08:57] <Strangerke> As if Apple invented something...
[09:00] <wjp> morning
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[09:30] <Sir_Burpalot> Strangerke: Apple may not have invented a lot, if anything, but at least they improve their products, whereas the others are forced to copy them in order to compete.
[09:32] <Sir_Burpalot> And that in itself is a useful contribution.
[09:32] <Sir_Burpalot> We don't know if smartphones would even have scratch-resistant glass by now if it weren't for Apple.
[09:33] <DrMcCoy> or were water-proof
[09:34] <DrMcCoy> or could be recharged in a microwave
[09:36] <Sir_Burpalot> I think Apple may have also started the trend of producing laptops with high-quality displays.
[09:38] <DrMcCoy> i think the moon may be made of cheese
[09:38] <Cheeseness> Hmm?
[09:38] <Cheeseness> Oh
[09:38] <DrMcCoy> lol
[09:38] <Sir_Burpalot> Before the rMBP, there weren't many laptops with IPS panels and DPIs over 200.
[09:38] <DrMcCoy> Cheeseness! :)
[09:39] <Cheeseness> How's it going?
[09:39] <DrMcCoy> Cheeseness: meh.
[09:39] <Cheeseness> :(
[09:39] <Cheeseness> We're planning to do Maniac Mansion for Game Club soon
[09:40] <DrMcCoy> oh, neat
[09:40] <Cheeseness> Currently negotiating to get Ron to join us again (he's interested, but is pretty busy)
[09:40] <DrMcCoy> which route?
[09:40] <Sir_Burpalot> TN+film panels with atrocious contrast and a resolution of 1366x768 were the standard. You could consider yourself lucky if you laptop had a panel that was also TN+film but had a resolution of 1920x1080 and slightly less atrocious contrast.
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[09:40] <Cheeseness> Not sure yet. We're thinking of putting that up for a vote
[09:40] <Sir_Burpalot> s/you/your/
[09:40] <DrMcCoy> :)
[09:43] <Sir_Burpalot> The technology for high-quality screens had been around for over a decade, but no one used it because the manufacturers were only concerned with cutting down costs. Even if you were willing to pay extra cash for a good screen, you didn't have a lot of options.
[09:44] <Sir_Burpalot> But then Apple rolled out their "Retina" MacBook Pro, and suddenly, high-quality panels started to appear in laptops from other brands, too.
[09:45] <Sir_Burpalot> Even if you don't actually buy Apple products, you benefit from Apple's existence.
[09:47] <DrMcCoy> or, in other words: Retina displays are useless and people don't care, but it's a great fad for idiots with more money than sense
[09:49] <DrMcCoy> like colourful backlit keyboard
[09:49] <Sir_Burpalot> At what point does increasing display resolution cease to be useful and become a "fad for idiots", DrMcCoy? Because even the DPI of "Retina" displays is far below the Nyquist limit for on-screen fonts.
[09:50] <Sir_Burpalot> Ideally, computer displays should have DPIs of around 1,024.
[09:50] <DrMcCoy> i am not sitting with my nose 1cm in front of the screen
[09:51] <DrMcCoy> dpi > 100 are bullshit
[09:51] <DrMcCoy> like 60 fps movies
[09:52] <Sir_Burpalot> I can quite easily tell the difference between ~100 DPI and ~200 DPI, and also between 24 FPS and 60 FPS, and I find the differences to be very striking.
[09:52] <DrMcCoy> yes, even 60 fps is lower than what our eyes perceive, but it's useless
[09:53] <Sir_Burpalot> Useless for what, exactly? I thought people watched films for enjoyment, not because it's useful.
[09:54] <DrMcCoy> Yes, and the 60 fps have no added impact to the enjoyment of the story, of the message of the movie
[09:54] <DrMcCoy> it's just added sparkles
[09:54] <DrMcCoy> See also: 3D movies
[09:54] <Sir_Burpalot> People used to say the same about movies in colour.
[09:55] <DrMcCoy> Or 24 bit / 192khz music
[09:56] <DrMcCoy> Hell, I would actually argue that making colour basically mandatory for movies destroyed a lot
[09:57] <Sir_Burpalot> That's not really comparable. No one is capable of hearing frequencies much above 20 kHz.
[09:57] <Sir_Burpalot> Nearly everyone can tell the difference between 96 DPI and "Retina".
[09:57] <Sir_Burpalot> Well, unless they have very poor vision.
[09:58] <DrMcCoy> Many black/white movies were very skillful with lighting and shadows, something that was lost when translating movies to colour
[09:59] <Sir_Burpalot> I bet you are also one of those people who would prefer if 320x200 2D graphics were still the standard for computer games.
[10:00] <Sir_Burpalot> I, on the other hand, would greatly enjoy it if someone made a full remake of Monkey Island on the Crysis engine.
[10:01] <DrMcCoy> Not necassarily 320x200 (especially since we've moved on to square pixels, and that's pretty much a shut case)
[10:01] <DrMcCoy> But the Crysis engine is exactly what's wrong with "modern" games
[10:01] <Sir_Burpalot> Why?
[10:01] <DrMcCoy> Just mindless eye candy
[10:02] <DrMcCoy> The games just focus on mindless graphics, not on story. Hell, not even on style
[10:02] <Sir_Burpalot> Games can have both good graphics and good story, you know. Just look at BioShock.
[10:02] <DrMcCoy> Style trumps raw graphical capabilities any time
[10:02] <DrMcCoy> Yeah, no, BioShock is very simplistic and flat
[10:03] <DrMcCoy> BioShock wants to seem all philosophical and intellectual, but it's really not
[10:03] <Sir_Burpalot> The reason modern games are often primitive in terms of story is because there's demand for games like that.
[10:04] <DrMcCoy> And that's sad
[10:04] <Sir_Burpalot> It is, but realistic graphics are not to blame.
[10:04] <DrMcCoy> I never said they're to blame. But a symptom
[10:06] <DrMcCoy> In either case, I for one am really looking forward to Pillars of Eternity and Torment: Tides of Numenera
[10:06] <Sir_Burpalot> DrMcCoy: and if you want to see a game with excellent story and style and (reasonably) modern graphics, check this one out: http://store.steampowered.com/app/37000/
[10:06] <DrMcCoy> Sir_Burpalot: Yeah, Windows-only, screw that
[10:07] <Sir_Burpalot> Erm, most games are Windows only, unless you are into consoles.
[10:07] <DrMcCoy> http://steamcommunity.com/app/37000/discussions/0/540736781038961343/#c613938693058752321
[10:09] <DrMcCoy> Well, I think we have already established what I think about "most games" :P
[10:09] <Sir_Burpalot> At least their remake of Pathologic is going to be multi platform, though.
[10:09] <DrMcCoy> yes
[10:11] <Sir_Burpalot> And as a Mac user, I don't like that that game is Windows only, either, but I doubt we'll ever see a Mac or GNU/Linux port.
[10:14] <man_in_shack> ew, mac
[10:15] <Sir_Burpalot> I don't see why so many people dislike Apple computers.
[10:15] <man_in_shack> the fanboys, mostly
[10:15] <man_in_shack> also the crappy interfaces
[10:16] <man_in_shack> pretty, yes. functional, barely
[10:16] <Sir_Burpalot> And Windows is better?
[10:16] <man_in_shack> no
[10:16] <man_in_shack> (:
[10:17] <Sir_Burpalot> I wonder what's better, then. The only GNU/Linux DE that's even remotely as good as OS X is GNOME 3.
[10:18] <man_in_shack> you only think that because you're insane
[10:19] <Sir_Burpalot> GNOME 3 would be as good as OS X if they had the manpower to make it that way.
[10:19] <DrMcCoy> more bloated?
[10:19] <Sir_Burpalot> But they don't, as is often the problem with open-source projects that are not financed by large corporations.
[10:20] <DrMcCoy> ratpoison. wmii. awesome. e16. xfce. take your pick
[10:20] Action: man_in_shack throws the cathedral and the bazaar at Sir_Burpalot
[10:20] <man_in_shack> Sir_Burpalot: you do realise scummvm is opensource, right? and isn't financed by a large corporation ...
[10:21] <Sir_Burpalot> Well, the ScummVM project could clearly use more manpower.
[10:21] <man_in_shack> what makes you say that?
[10:21] <man_in_shack> because it works?
[10:22] <man_in_shack> because it supports so many different engines extremely well?
[10:22] <Sir_Burpalot> It has a solid core, but integration with different platforms is lacking.
[10:23] <man_in_shack> define "integration"
[10:23] <DrMcCoy> to be fair, scummvm could use more devs for some engines. and porters
[10:23] <man_in_shack> true, DrMcCoy
[10:23] <DrMcCoy> but screw special os integration
[10:23] <man_in_shack> just think Sir_Burpalot's argument is very knee-jerk
[10:24] <Sir_Burpalot> I'm not trying to disrespect the ScummVM project.
[10:24] <Sir_Burpalot> Or GNOME 3, for that matter.
[10:24] <man_in_shack> "i don't like how it works therefore it needs more people"
[10:24] <man_in_shack> "it doesn't work like apple therefore it needs more people"
[10:25] <man_in_shack> "it is opensource therefore it needs more people"
[10:26] <Sir_Burpalot> Another example would be how Firefox is slow because they're taking forever to implement electrolysis.
[10:27] <man_in_shack> firefox is slow because it is gecko engine
[10:27] <Sir_Burpalot> *Electrolysis
[10:32] <Sir_Burpalot> But yes, the reason ScummVM doesn't behave like a Windows app on Windows or like an OS X app on OS X is because writing a native interface for each platform would require more resources.
[10:32] <Sir_Burpalot> Not because it wouldn't be desirable.
[10:33] <man_in_shack> really?
[10:33] <man_in_shack> scummvm runs on just about every modern computing device
[10:33] <man_in_shack> having to build native interfaces for all of them would be insanely difficult
[10:34] <man_in_shack> small change to interface means testing it on EVERY supported platform
[10:34] <DrMcCoy> also undesirable.
[10:34] <man_in_shack> or, scummvm can stick with its current system and know that a change to the interface means it will be equally changed on all systems
[10:35] <man_in_shack> everything from nokia symbian phones to ps3
[10:35] <man_in_shack> not all supported platforms even have native widget systems
[10:36] <man_in_shack> games consoles don't
[10:38] <Sir_Burpalot> With enough manpower, it wouldn't be that difficult.
[10:39] <man_in_shack> Sir_Burpalot: to do os-native interfaces just for PC OSes means one each for windows, macos, gtk, gnome, qt, kde, haiku ...
[10:39] <man_in_shack> Sir_Burpalot: you find scummvm the manpower and i'm sure they'll consider it
[10:40] <Sir_Burpalot> Or you can have native interfaces for the popular platforms and a generic SDL one for all those other platforms that less than 0.5% of ScummVM users use.
[10:41] <man_in_shack> add in mobile, and that's symbian, maemo, windows phone (multiple versions), android, ios ...
[10:41] <man_in_shack> Sir_Burpalot: define "popular", and provide stats for your claim of 0.5%
[10:41] <man_in_shack> also chromeos ...
[10:42] <Sir_Burpalot> I agree that supporting all the different GNU/Linux UIs would be a pain in the backside.
[10:42] <man_in_shack> and i agree that supporting macosx ui would be a pain in the backside
[10:43] <man_in_shack> for a start, scummvm is not written in objective c
[10:43] <Sir_Burpalot> At least OS X only has one UI.
[10:43] <man_in_shack> ok, so go write a ui for it
[10:43] <man_in_shack> we'll wait
[10:44] <Sir_Burpalot> I don't know how easy it is to integrate C code into Objective-C, but Boxer has done it.
[10:45] <man_in_shack> hmm, you don't know about integrating obj-c and c ... i wonder if there are other technical things you don't understand about native ui support ...
[10:45] <Sir_Burpalot> And as for the 0.5% figure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems
[10:45] <man_in_shack> Sir_Burpalot: those are not statistics for scummvm
[10:46] <Sir_Burpalot> Hm, okay.
[10:46] <Sir_Burpalot> Check out the download statistics for each platform: http://sourceforge.net/projects/scummvm/files/scummvm/1.7.0/
[10:47] <man_in_shack> ok, so scummvm only needs to make a windows interface then
[10:48] <man_in_shack> almost 3000 downloads in the last 7 days, compared to not even 850 for macosx
[10:48] <man_in_shack> *over 3000, including .exe and .zip
[10:49] <Sir_Burpalot> "Only" needs to make a Windows interface? I didn't say that.
[10:49] <man_in_shack> this also fails to take into account non-direct downloads. almost all linux users will download via package managers
[10:49] <Sir_Burpalot> But a Windows interface should definitely be very high on the priority list.
[10:49] <man_in_shack> why?
[10:50] <Sir_Burpalot> Well, because of HiDPI, for one thing.
[10:50] <Sir_Burpalot> SDL1 doesn't support it.
[10:50] <man_in_shack> because sourceforge has no way of tracking how many copies of scummvm are installed via non-sourceforge methods?
[10:50] <man_in_shack> Sir_Burpalot: define "doesn't support"
[10:52] <Sir_Burpalot> ScummVM isn't aware of DPIs other than the standard one and doesn't scale its elements accordingly.
[10:52] <man_in_shack> there is no "standard dpi"
[10:52] <Sir_Burpalot> On Windows, there is.
[10:53] <man_in_shack> that's because windows doesn't believe in multiple sizes of screens
[10:53] <man_in_shack> most versions of windows only operated at a fixed dpi
[10:53] <man_in_shack> regardless of how many dpi the display device had
[10:53] <Sir_Burpalot> You can either let the OS take care of the scaling, which will look bad, or disable scaling altogether, which, provided that your DPI is large enough, will result in UI elements being unbearably tiny.
[10:54] <Sir_Burpalot> On OS X, the absence of HiDPI support causes even more serious problems.
[10:54] <man_in_shack> that is a failing of osx
[10:55] <man_in_shack> dpi = dots per inch
[10:55] <man_in_shack> there shouldn't NEED to be a special "high dpi" mode
[10:56] <Sir_Burpalot> man_in_shack: it isn't like ScummVM supports arbitrary DPIs on any platform at all.
[10:56] <man_in_shack> Sir_Burpalot: http://scummvm.org/compatibility/ << find ONE game on this list that can do that
[10:57] <man_in_shack> all those games use pre-rendered graphics. they are always going to have graphical scaling issues with larger screens and higher dpis
[10:57] <Sir_Burpalot> HiDPI support would enable ScummVM to upscale games to native screen resolutions with better precision.
[10:57] <man_in_shack> define "better precision"
[10:58] <man_in_shack> cos a lot of these games are at resolutions like 320x200 or so
[10:59] <man_in_shack> upscaling doesn't increase definition
[10:59] <Sir_Burpalot> When you upscale a game to a resolution that's not a multiple of the original one, it's going to introduce errors.
[10:59] <man_in_shack> you can't suddenly make roger wilco in space quest 2 look like he does in space quest 6 just by changing the number of pixels on your screen
[10:59] <Sir_Burpalot> The errors are less noticeable when the target resolution is higher.
[11:00] <man_in_shack> Sir_Burpalot: there are algorithms for that. this "HiDPI" crap is not unique
[11:01] <Sir_Burpalot> Of course there are algorithms for that. Like nearest-neighbour interpolation.
[11:02] <man_in_shack> so ...
[11:02] <Sir_Burpalot> The issue is that the native resolution of the screen isn't exposed to ScummVM.
[11:02] <man_in_shack> have you tried putting scummvm in fullscreen mode?
[11:02] <Sir_Burpalot> Fullscreen is broken on OS X.
[11:02] <man_in_shack> another failing thereof
[11:03] <Sir_Burpalot> (And if it weren't broken, can you imagine how small ScummVM's UI elements would look at 2880x1800 on a 15-inch screen?)
[11:04] <man_in_shack> no, but i can imagine the 320x200 or 640x480 resolution games not looking any different whether your screen is at native resolution or not
[11:05] <Sir_Burpalot> Sure, they won't look different, as long as the target resolution is a multiple of the original one AND there's no aspect ratio correction.
[11:07] <Sir_Burpalot> Upscaling 320x200 to 1200x900 will introduce errors. Upscaling 320x200 to 2400x1800 will also introduce errors, but there will be less noticeable.
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[11:08] <Sir_Burpalot> s/there/they/
[11:09] <man_in_shack> i fail to see the problem
[11:10] <man_in_shack> given how few pixels the original graphics have
[11:11] <man_in_shack> not to mention your screen has its own upscaling algorithm
[11:12] <man_in_shack> this isn't 1999
[11:12] <man_in_shack> where upscaling 640x480 to 800x600 meant half the graphical pixels would be twice the size the display
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[11:50] <t0by> <Sir_Burpalot> At what point does increasing display resolution cease to be useful and become a "fad for idiots", DrMcCoy? Because even the DPI of "Retina" displays is far below the Nyquist limit for on-screen fonts. <==== What point? Well, IMHO the point is whether you are a graphic artist or a CAD guy or not. In my everyday experience, I don't *need* a super high resolution screen. I can see pixels, so what? I'll just us
[11:50] <t0by> e a font that's readable even when pixellated. Apple's own Chicago, for example.
[11:51] <t0by> <DrMcCoy> Hell, I would actually argue that making colour basically mandatory for movies destroyed a lot ===> It could be worse. It could be raining. <nudge, nudge, wink wink>
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[11:53] <Sir_Burpalot> If you think that fonts merely being "good enough" to be readable is the standard we should all aspire to, then yes, you're right. But there's a reason books are printed at 600 or even 1200 DPI.
[11:53] <t0by> I must say I haven't got it exactly clear what the above chat is about.
[11:53] <t0by> Are we saying that ScummVM is broken with the latest OS X?
[11:53] <t0by> Broken as in fullscreen is broken?
[11:53] <Sir_Burpalot> And that reason isn't because graphic artists are their primary audience.
[11:54] <Sir_Burpalot> ScummVM is broken on Retina displays.
[11:54] <Sir_Burpalot> Not necessarily with the latest OS X...
[11:54] <t0by> The reason is: it's books, not computer displays :P
[11:55] <t0by> How is "Retina" exactly defined in this context?
[11:55] <Sir_Burpalot> It doesn't matter whether you are reading text from a printed page or from a computer screen.
[11:55] <t0by> By this line of reasoning, all handheld calculators are and always have been broken?
[11:56] <t0by> Not to mention cell phones with "regular" LCD displays?
[11:56] <t0by> (As in B&W)
[11:56] <t0by> So the thing is: ScummVM is broken in fullscreen with all recent Macintoshes?
[11:57] <t0by> As in, it only takes part of the screen?
[11:57] <t0by> And it's not an OS X bug?
[11:57] <t0by> (Or SDL bug)
[11:57] <Sir_Burpalot> It's an SDL bug.
[11:57] <t0by> Is there a ticket for it on their tracker already?
[11:57] <Sir_Burpalot> SDL1 is no longer updated.
[11:58] <Sir_Burpalot> It's not going to get fixed.
[11:58] <Sir_Burpalot> As for calculators, there used to be calculators with nixie tubes.
[11:59] <t0by> <Sir_Burpalot> It's not going to get fixed. ===> Uhm, this is bad.
[11:59] <Sir_Burpalot> And an old mobile phone with a black-and-white LCD panel isn't comparable to a computer, because, given its limitations, you're probably not going to spend over 12 hours a day staring into its tiny screen.
[11:59] <Sir_Burpalot> I routinely spend over 12 hours a day staring into a computer screen.
[12:00] <t0by> Then your workflow is broken :P
[12:00] <Sir_Burpalot> And I interact with text in some form 99% of the time that I spend on the computer.
[12:01] <t0by> That's not the point.
[12:01] <t0by> The point is you go for the cheapest piece of hardware that does the job.
[12:01] <t0by> A 1 1/2 inch screen is fine for texting
[12:02] <t0by> of course it's reasonable that you'd want a bigger screen and a different UI to work
[12:02] <t0by> but why *seeing pixels* bothers you?
[12:02] <t0by> Of course you wouldn't want that on a book, because a book is, well, made of paper, so that would be gross incompetence on the publisher's or printer's part to put out a book that's... pixelated.
[12:03] <t0by> That would mean somebody screwed up big time with the photolitography.
[12:03] <Sir_Burpalot> Printed text does have a resolution, you know. It's just very high.
[12:03] <Sir_Burpalot> 600 or even 1200 DPI, like I said.
[12:04] <t0by> So what?
[12:04] <t0by> I'm not seeing your point.
[12:04] <Sir_Burpalot> Why shouldn't we apply the same standard to text on a computer screen?
[12:04] <t0by> Printing a pixelated book would mean purpousefully screwing up at the photolitography stage.
[12:04] <Sir_Burpalot> Low-resolution printing would probably be cheaper.
[12:05] <t0by> Because a computer screen with higher pixel density is more difficult to manufacture and more expensive
[12:05] <t0by> while paper is... well, paper.
[12:05] <Sir_Burpalot> Look... I don't have a life, okay?
[12:05] <t0by> If you want an analogy, ask yourself why you'd want ultra white paper in printed books.
[12:05] <t0by> <Sir_Burpalot> Low-resolution printing would probably be cheaper. ==> not really.
[12:06] <Sir_Burpalot> I enjoy looking at beautifully rendered fonts on a high-resolution screen because it's literally one of the most exciting things about my life.
[12:06] <t0by> Making the plates is a negligible cost when you are printing more than a couple of copies.
[12:06] <t0by> <Sir_Burpalot> I enjoy looking at beautifully rendered fonts on a high-resolution screen because it's literally one of the most exciting things about my life. ===> I know that feel, bro.
[12:07] <Sir_Burpalot> If I spend the majority of my time staring into a screen when I'm not eating or sleeping, I figure it might as well be a damn good screen.
[12:08] <Sir_Burpalot> If I had more of a life, maybe I wouldn't care as much.
[12:09] <t0by> Anyway, DrMcCoy et al - I'm not sure, is there a plan at this point to deal with the whole thing? Namely, SDL1 being no longer supported and already rotting, according to Sir_Burpalot?
[12:15] <edheldil> at least for me, seeing non-aliased text in dialog windows (e.g. Steam upgrade dialog) nowadays is visually jarring - and that was a standard just a few years back
[12:18] <fuzzie> oh gosh you all said things
[12:18] <fuzzie> sdl1 surely has nothing to do with all thus tho
[12:20] <fuzzie> i mean you can just maximise it?
[12:20] <t0by> <fuzzie> sdl1 surely has nothing to do with all thus tho ===> So it's a /ScummVM bug/? I'm sorry to be that guy, but there is a guy saying "Hey, ScummVM is permabroken on all Macs with the latest OS X" and we don't have a ticket for it :-|
[12:20] <t0by> (And neither has SDL, apparently)
[12:20] <fuzzie> i mean the hidpi text
[12:21] <fuzzie> and yes well sdl1 vs sdl2 is a nightmare
[12:21] <Sir_Burpalot> t0by: there's probably not much that can be done about the problem, short of porting ScummVM to SDL2 or OS X's native API.
[12:21] <fuzzie> sdl1 is broken in various ways
[12:22] <fuzzie> sdl2 is broken in other ways
[12:22] <Sir_Burpalot> SDL1 is no longer maintained.
[12:22] <t0by> So SDL bug but no ticket because SDL1 is no longer mantained?
[12:22] <fuzzie> so it leaves us with a problem
[12:22] <fuzzie> i'm amazed if thete's no ticket
[12:23] <t0by> This is bad.
[12:23] <fuzzie> we've applied other sdl1 fixes to our buildbot before
[12:23] <fuzzie> so sdl1 upstream being dead isn't necessarily relevant
[12:24] <fuzzie> but if the buildbot builds are broken and no-one filed a ticket then.... apparently no user cares?
[12:25] <Sir_Burpalot> t0by: to clarify, fullscreen is only broken with OpenGL. Normal fullscreen modes are just badly scaled due to OS X only presenting half of the native resolution of the screen to ScummVM, with no obvious way to turn off that scaling.
[12:25] Action: t0by scratches head
[12:25] <Sir_Burpalot> (I was told to add a certain key to the plist, but that didn't help.)
[12:26] <fuzzie> I don't know if any of the devs have a retina mac.
[12:26] <droid2727> I don't want to waste my money on one
[12:26] <t0by> So if it's OS X presenting half of the native resolution... it's not broken, it's OS X presenting half of the native resolution. Or am I still not understanding?
[12:26] <Sir_Burpalot> When a game is upscaled to 1440x900 by ScummVM and then to 2880x1800 by OS X, the result doesn't look all that pretty.
[12:27] <fuzzie> t0by: well that is bad for the user
[12:27] <t0by> <Sir_Burpalot> When a game is upscaled to 1440x900 by ScummVM and then to 2880x1800 by OS X, the result doesn't look all that pretty. ===> Aliasing?
[12:27] <fuzzie> doesn't matter where 'blame' lies
[12:27] <Sir_Burpalot> t0by: OS X presenting half of the native resolution to apps is just its way of dealing with non-Retina-aware apps.
[12:27] <t0by> So we are getting aliasing?
[12:27] <fuzzie> but yeah scummvm's gui is miserable on sane-dpi displays
[12:28] <Sir_Burpalot> If it presented the native resolution to ScummVM, games would look fine, but UI elements would be too small.
[12:28] <t0by> OH.
[12:28] <t0by> Now I get it.
[12:28] <fuzzie> adding a higher-dpi variant is on my todo
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[12:29] <t0by> So the idea is that a 480x320 game has /less/ aliasing if upscaled at 2880 rather than 1440?
[12:29] <t0by> Makes sense.
[12:29] <Sir_Burpalot> Well, games don't actually get upscaled to 1440x900, because they're 4:3, not 16:10.
[12:29] <Sir_Burpalot> 1200x900, more like.
[12:29] <t0by> Yeah, okay.
[12:29] <t0by> Kind of makes sense.
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[12:31] <Sir_Burpalot> When I used a 1920x1200 monitor, I could play 320x200 games in fullscreen with aspect ratio correction and no aliasing whatosever. And I could still play them in 1920x1200 in a window on my Retina MBP, but only if ScummVM were DPI-aware.
[12:31] <Sir_Burpalot> s/whatosever/whatsoever/
[12:32] <Sir_Burpalot> 320x200 scales perfectly to 1600x1200.
[12:33] <fuzzie> so did you file a bug on the opengl thing?
[12:35] <Sir_Burpalot> There hasn't been a new release of SDL1 in over two years. Are they still accepting bug reports?
[12:35] <Sir_Burpalot> Nearly three years, actually.
[12:36] <Sir_Burpalot> SDL2, to my knowledge, does have DPI awareness.
[12:36] <Sir_Burpalot> At least on OS X. I don't know about other platforms.
[12:36] <fuzzie> against scummvm :)
[12:37] <fuzzie> sdl2 is problematic forr us due to various dropped features
[12:38] <Sir_Burpalot> No, but someone else already did.
[12:38] <fuzzie> in particular the key/input mapping that many old games depend on
[12:38] <Sir_Burpalot> Or maybe not.
[12:38] <fuzzie> so it is non-trivial to port
[12:38] <Sir_Burpalot> I'm not sure if this bug is related: http://sourceforge.net/p/scummvm/bugs/6117/
[12:42] <droid2727> file a new one.
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[12:45] <Sir_Burpalot> ...And with the normal 3x without OpenGL, screen transitions are extremely slow on my Retina MBP, taking up to 8 seconds, in addition to the aliasing problem.
[12:45] <Sir_Burpalot> s/normal 3x/normal 3x scaler/
[12:48] <wjp> please also file a separate bug report for that
[12:48] <wjp> (and don't forget to mention that you mean _SCI_ screen transitions?)
[12:49] <Sir_Burpalot> The aliasing is actually not that bad, because the game gets upscaled to 960x720 before OS X scales it to the native resolution - with some kind of filtering, sadly.
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[12:59] <waltervn> the scummvm+mac+sdl situation is far from ideal at the moment, even at smaller window sizes
[13:04] <fuzzie> howso?
[13:06] <waltervn> IIRC, it's capped at 60 full screen updates per second
[13:06] <waltervn> so if you try to do 180 partial updates for a transition that should take 0.5 seconds, it takes 3 seconds on the mac
[13:06] <droid2727> vsync
[13:06] <fuzzie> heh
[13:07] <waltervn> and our specs say that the backend should be able to handle this situation
[13:07] <fuzzie> yes, presumably it should be batching too-fast requests
[13:08] <droid2727> Workaround: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12345730/how-to-disable-vsync-on-mac-osx
[13:11] <wjp> it feels a bit silly that this is apparently causing problems in the one place in SCI where we actually _do_ control the frames
[13:12] <wjp> (usually the scripts control drawing, but during transitions that's our code)
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[17:11] <Quatroking> oh no
[17:11] <Quatroking> tobia forgot
[17:12] <Quatroking> muh amigas
[17:14] <Harekiet> burn them all
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[17:28] <WooShell> meow =^.^=
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[19:14] <criezy> Good evening.
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[21:14] <DrMcCoy> :/
[21:15] <Strangerke> indeed :\
[21:28] <droid2727> Strangerke: -> calm down :P
[21:28] <DrMcCoy> lol
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[00:00] --- Tue Nov 25 2014