ScummVM IRC Log - 20 Nov 2014

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[00:01] <m_kiewitz> I think I looked into that INN stuff and part of it were actual programs, not scripts
[00:03] <droid2727> some of it
[00:03] <droid2727> like the red baron game, yeah
[00:03] <droid2727> all the cool stuff isn't lsci, basically :P
[00:04] <m_kiewitz> so it's kinda useless :P
[00:06] <droid2727> alas
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[07:39] <waltervn> morning
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[13:24] <Sir_Burpalot> How soon is ScummVM going to switch to SDL 2? SDL 1 has no Retina display support on OS X.
[13:24] <Sir_Burpalot> Everything is rendered at half the native DPI and then upscaled.
[13:27] <Sir_Burpalot> That's not much of an issue when you're playing a game in its native resolution, but as soon as you maximise the window (because fullscreen is broken) or turn on aspect ratio correction, things start to look ugly.
[13:28] <droid2727> just add NSHighResolutionCapable to the plist
[13:31] <Sir_Burpalot> Perhaps I'm doing something wrong, but it didn't help.
[13:32] <somaen> Well, to be fair, that's not really the biggest issue with SDL1 on OS X
[13:32] <somaen> Crashes when switching fullscreen/windowed is a bit worse
[13:32] <somaen> But, the answer to your first question is: Not any time soon at all.
[13:33] <droid2727> And never "switching" to SDL 2. Supporting it, eventually
[13:33] <Sir_Burpalot> That's a shame. I wish someone would make a Boxer for ScummVM.
[13:33] <somaen> Well, at some point SDL1 will get too old I guess
[13:33] <somaen> seeing as it's unmaintained
[13:33] <droid2727> It's a shame SDL2 made crazy decisions
[13:34] <somaen> Well, that, and the fact that it's not really mature enough yet.
[13:34] <Sir_Burpalot> SDL1 is already too old. It isn't just Apple computers that have high-DPI displays.
[13:34] <somaen> aquadran tried to port ResidualVM to SDL2, IIRC OpenGL context creation was broken on OS X in SDL 2.
[13:34] <somaen> Sir_Burpalot: Pfft, High-Dpi is just a lack of a new feature
[13:35] <somaen> It's worse when things get obsoleted.
[13:35] <somaen> Like when OS X 10.7 was released, and SDL 1.2.14 suddenly was unable to go fullscreen at all.
[13:36] <somaen> Happily 1.2.15 was released to fix that, but I wouldn't bet on another round of fixes like that, I _WOULD_ however bet on Apple deprecating more stuff in the future.
[13:36] <wjp> (fullscreen is broken on OS X?)
[13:36] <somaen> wjp: Not consistently
[13:36] <wjp> so, that's a yes? :-)
[13:36] <somaen> But I did some testing with my GoG-bought LSL
[13:36] <Sir_Burpalot> It's just that most open-source projects poop on high DPI, except for GNOME 3 and Firefox.
[13:36] <Strangerke> wjp: yes
[13:37] <somaen> it can't switch consistently, and IIRC updating from 1.5.0 to 1.6.0 didn't help atleast.
[13:37] <Sir_Burpalot> wjp: on Retina displays, it appears to be broken.
[13:37] <somaen> Sir_Burpalot: It's a case of "someone needs to care AND have the hw"
[13:38] <Strangerke> somaen: and free time
[13:38] <Sir_Burpalot> With the OpenGL renderer, at least.
[13:38] <somaen> Well, does the normal renderer work?
[13:38] <wjp> did anybody already investigate _why_ it's broken?
[13:38] <somaen> I seem to remember OS X exposing the actual resolution to OpenGL
[13:38] <somaen> but talking in half-resolution through normal APIs or something
[13:39] <wjp> and that makes us and/or SDL confused?
[13:39] <somaen> (Just speculating, as I remember Diablo 3 reviews talking about very high resolutions)
[13:39] <somaen> Might be
[13:39] <somaen> I don't have a retina screen, but it could be.
[13:39] <somaen> It could also be a case of adding a plist-flag like clone mentioned
[13:40] <wjp> that flag sounds it would only be a good idea when using OpenGL rendering?
[13:40] <somaen> Which btw should preferably be done for the flag that tells OS X that we DON'T need a dedicated GPU anyhow.
[13:40] <somaen> (I.e. the "Sure, Intel graphics is fine" flag)
[13:40] <somaen> For battery reasons.
[13:41] <wjp> do we have anyone with a Mac and a retina display?
[13:42] <somaen> Sir_Burpalot: Did you try to press CMD-I on ScummVM in Finder, and select "open in low res"?
[13:43] <somaen> From http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20426140/how-to-enable-use-low-resolution-on-retina-display-for-an-application-when-shi
[13:43] <Sir_Burpalot> I did just now. Fullscreen is still broken.
[13:43] <droid2727> Or have the OS rebuild the plist cache after modifying the plist?
[13:43] <somaen> I get the idea that _IF_ that works, then the plsit change should.
[13:43] <Sir_Burpalot> Oh, the plist cache.
[13:43] <somaen> droid2727: Shouldn't the override in Finder effectively do the same thing?
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[13:44] <droid2727> I thought they were slightly different
[13:44] <droid2727> But I don't have anything beyond 10.6, so I can only make guesses here
[13:45] <somaen> Well, 10.10 here, but non-retina.
[13:45] <Sir_Burpalot> I've also noticed that, even though there's pixel doubling, screen transitions in SCI games take considerably longer than they did on a non-Retina display.
[13:46] <somaen> I have, from time to time considered doing a native OS X backend for modern-ish OS X.
[13:46] <somaen> Since that seems to be the place where SDL tears the most at the seems these days.
[13:46] <Sir_Burpalot> That would be very nice.
[13:46] <somaen> (And I've been wanting to have some reason to do something in Cocoa anyhow)
[13:47] <droid2727> the screen transition nonsense has always been around
[13:47] <droid2727> disable vsync and it will be fine
[13:47] <Sir_Burpalot> Would it have native OS X menus, too?
[13:48] <somaen> In a perfect world where I'd have time, sure, why not.
[13:48] <wjp> these transitions are annoying, yes...
[13:49] <droid2727> I too have thought about breaking from SDL...
[13:49] <somaen> I'm not sure what SDK version should be targetted though, although, I'd guess something like 10.7+ atleast, since SDL1 seems to work ok up until 10.6
[13:50] <droid2727> though, I only looked at OpenAL support
[13:50] <droid2727> somaen: and then we'd be releasing two versions for Mac?
[13:50] <somaen> Well, what we'd be releasing is entirely another question.
[13:51] <somaen> But OS X is a rather divergent target when you stretch it from 10.2 to 10.10
[13:51] <droid2727> Not as much as you'd think; not for what we use
[13:51] <Sir_Burpalot> Other platforms have all around crappy high-DPI support, but on OS X, I only have to put up with ScummVM not supporting it, so that's comforting.
[13:51] <somaen> The Intel-side of the UB can be built against 10.5 anyhow (well, 10.4 if we want to support the earliest dev machines)
[13:52] <somaen> Although, it isn't really pretty to have a UB where the ppc-binary is SDL1-based, and the Intel-binary is non-SDL-based I guess.
[13:52] <droid2727> That might be doable
[13:52] <droid2727> Or have a native Mac one be 64-bit only
[13:53] <droid2727> and the ppc and x86 ones remain SDL
[13:53] <droid2727> it's never pretty, no
[13:55] <Sir_Burpalot> Why is there still a PPC build? If anyone is using a PPC Mac in 2014 as anything other than a museum showpiece, they should expect lots of things not to work.
[13:55] <somaen> Well, diverging depending on x86/x86-64 is a bit weird
[13:55] <somaen> Sir_Burpalot: Please, don't do that.
[13:56] <somaen> You won't be getting any more friends that way.
[13:56] <Sir_Burpalot> Well, the PPC support is probably the reason Dreamweb is broken on OS X.
[13:56] <wjp> Dreamweb is broken on OS X?
[13:56] <Sir_Burpalot> Yes. It crashes after the intro.
[13:57] <somaen> Is this by any chance 1.6.0?
[13:57] <somaen> The problem is not what you think it is.
[13:57] <wjp> oh, right, somebody built it with a broken compiler
[13:57] <somaen> Yes, it is only in the release build.
[13:57] <somaen> A buildbot build of the same branch does not have that issue.
[13:58] <Sir_Burpalot> Well, isn't it because of the PPC support that an outdated compiler is used for the release builds?
[13:58] <Sir_Burpalot> Maybe not.
[13:59] <droid2727> Since buildbot has a ppc build too, no
[14:00] <Sir_Burpalot> At some point, though, support for legacy software and hardware really does need to be dropped if it becomes too painful to maintain. Just look at IE6...
[14:00] <droid2727> Blaming PPC builds for your woes won't you anywhere
[14:00] <wjp> legacy software? Such as, say, Monkey Island 1? :-)
[14:00] <droid2727> We're all about supporting legacy software.
[14:01] <somaen> Sir_Burpalot: The PPC build can be performed completely separately from the intel build
[14:01] <Sir_Burpalot> Oh, another question about Dreamweb.
[14:02] <somaen> a UB is basically just a glued together set of 2/3 binaries
[14:02] <Sir_Burpalot> Why is the bright palette mode turned on by default?
[14:02] <Sir_Burpalot> Does it have something to do with the Amiga version? Because I don't remember Dreamweb ever looking like that on DOS.
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[14:04] <Sir_Burpalot> (The buildbot version of ScummVM doesn't crash, by the way, so thanks.)
[14:04] <wjp> there should be an option to turn off the bright palette
[14:05] <somaen> IIRC, it isn't even a case of a broken compiler, just outdated libs.
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[14:06] <Sir_Burpalot> wjp: I know there's an option. It's just always puzzled me why it's enabled by default.
[14:07] <somaen> And well, personally I don't really see a big problem with offering two separate OS X builds, one for 10.2-10.6 and one for 10.7+ (or some other split). 10.6 has rosetta, anything after doesn't. The only real problem is that there is nothing preventing that from having to happen AGAIN, which is boring.
[14:07] <wjp> somaen: hm, I think the valgrind backtrace pointed at a compiler bug since it was showing data corruption inside our own data strucctures
[14:07] <wjp> s/valgrind//
[14:08] <somaen> wjp: I vaguely remember doing some tests there, and noticing some discrepancies in the libs
[14:08] <somaen> Which of course might lead to a bug in our code at a later point.
[14:08] Action: wjp is unconvinced :-)
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[14:09] <somaen> Oh well.
[14:09] <somaen> Would anyone scream at me if I _DID_ do a native OS X backend?
[14:11] <wjp> assuming it would have feature parity, I guess the big question would be maintenance
[14:12] <somaen> Yeah, I'd be hoping to converge atleast SOME with the iOS-backend
[14:13] <somaen> It would give me a chance to add proper fullscreen support, which SDL1 won't add, ever.
[14:17] <somaen> I remember having some code in for ResidualVM that allowed the iOS backend (lifted from ScummVM) to work in GLES2 too, moving the GL-context from the main-thread to the "gameloop"-thread, I really should take another look at that (and look into allowing both GLES1 and GLES2) for backporting/completion.
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[17:05] <WooShell> meow =^.^=
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[17:54] <m_kiewitz> Space Quest 6 - the waiting game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Oqr0WTfrNs
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[18:19] <Raziel^> m_kiewitz: too bad they didn't award that :-)
[18:20] <m_kiewitz> we could patch something in :P
[18:20] <Raziel^> hell, yeah, please :-D
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[19:41] <sirlemonhead> heh getting major weirdness in Fate of atlantis from GOG.
[19:42] <sirlemonhead> Sophia is apparently having knifes thrown at her, yet she's currently on the other side of the screen :P
[19:42] <sirlemonhead> knife thrower is talking to thin air :)
[19:43] <sirlemonhead> I assume that's just Scumm itself acting up and/or old scummvm version..
[19:45] <droid2727> file a bug
[19:45] <sirlemonhead> ok, will do. I have two savegames where it acts up
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[00:00] --- Fri Nov 21 2014