ScummVM IRC Log - 20 Mar 2015

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[01:17] <Endy> Yeah
[01:17] <Endy> Saw the GOG email and wondered if it was Zak256 or not :)
[01:17] <Lightkey> you lag
[01:17] <Endy> ... fashionably late, thanks!
[01:18] <Lightkey> but LOOM is only the cut CD version
[01:20] <Endy> :(
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[04:04] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with 15a4371b: Failure: master-iphone
[04:04] <Lightkey> http://www.mastertronic.com/product/broken-sword-trilogy-download nice, they actually mention that Broken Sword runs all platforms ScummVM supports (technically wrong but it's an improvement)
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[04:10] <Endy> Lightkey: Nice ;)
[04:10] <Endy> Well, a better situation anyway.
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[07:37] <waltervn> morning
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[08:38] <Endy> Hey LordHoto
[08:41] <LordHoto> hi Endy
[08:41] <LordHoto> what's up?
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[08:55] <Endy> LordHoto: 4:55PM on a Friday.
[08:55] <Endy> It's Beer O'clock, and I'm all outta beer :P
[08:55] <Endy> bleh
[09:00] <LordHoto> That sounds bad. ;-)
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[10:26] <GitHub173> [scummvm] m-kiewitz pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/hV9E
[10:26] <GitHub173> scummvm/master 7c967e2 Martin Kiewitz: LOG: fix month in log file
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[10:29] <Vanfanel> Hi. I'm trying to cross-compile for arm, and I get:
[10:30] <Vanfanel> /opt/rpi_root/usr/lib/libSDL.so: undefined reference to `__pow_finite@GLIBC_2.15'
[10:30] <Vanfanel> /opt/rpi_root/usr/lib/libSDL.so: undefined reference to `__log_finite@GLIBC_2.15'
[10:30] <Vanfanel> any idea on why is it happening?
[10:30] <Vanfanel> my link line looks like this:
[10:30] <Vanfanel> arm-bcm2708hardfp-linux-gnueabi-g++ backends/platform/sdl/sdl.o backends/platform/sdl/posix/posix-main.o backends/platform/sdl/posix/posix.o backends/platform/sdl/raspberrypi/raspberrypi-main.o backends/platform/sdl/raspberrypi/raspberrypi.o base/libbase.a engines/scumm/libscumm.a gui/libgui.a backends/libbackends.a engines/libengines.a video/libvideo.a graphics/libgraphics.a image/libimage.a audio/libaudio.a common/libcommon.a
[10:31] <Vanfanel> as you can see, libmath is being linked, and the g++ cross compiler is used as linker, as intended
[10:32] <wjp> I don't see libm?
[10:32] <fuzzie> your line is probably too long. pastebin it?
[10:33] <Vanfanel> wjp: there's -lm
[10:33] <Vanfanel> fuzzie: sorry, will pastebin it
[10:34] <Vanfanel> fuzzie: http://pastebin.com/n20BUJqT
[10:35] <Vanfanel> wjp: -lm is for linking against lib math, as fas as I know...
[10:35] <fuzzie> libm is clear, libmath is not :)
[10:35] <wjp> as fuzzie said, it was cut off because the line was too long
[10:35] <fuzzie> glibc version issue?
[10:36] <Vanfanel> wjp: sorry about that
[10:36] <Vanfanel> fuzzie: so the problem could be glibc and not libSDL.so?
[10:37] <fuzzie> I would guess that the problem is that your cross-compile toolchain is building against a different libc to the one in your /opt/rpi_root.
[10:37] <fuzzie> try --sysroot=/opt/rpi_root
[10:37] <Vanfanel> ok
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[10:38] <Vanfanel> fuzzie: error: unrecognized option: --sysroot=/opt/rpi_root
[10:39] <Vanfanel> maybe my configure script is outdated?
[10:39] <fuzzie> as a gcc parameter.
[10:39] <Vanfanel> ahh, sorry
[10:42] <fuzzie> (i.e. CXXFLAGS and LDFLAGS, but I figured you could just rerun that link line with it)
[10:50] <Vanfanel> fuzzie: I get an error more with that-> http://pastebin.com/ZN2HRuWw
[10:55] <Vanfanel> also, how can I know what glibc is it trying to link against?
[10:59] <fuzzie> Vanfanel: but there's no sysroot in that line?
[10:59] <fuzzie> and indeed you can clearly see it's linking against the sysroot that came with your toolchain..
[11:02] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with 7c967e2f: Success: master-iphone
[11:06] <Vanfanel> fuzzie: I added it to the link line...
[11:06] <Vanfanel> http://pastebin.com/9B3vAyGm
[11:15] <Vanfanel> fuzzie: also tried to grep for that crt1.o and pointing the linker to the dir were it lives:
[11:15] <Vanfanel> http://pastebin.com/MWETDCYm
[11:16] <fuzzie> I am *guessing* that your raspberry pi toolchain is not the same toolchain which is in your /opt/rpi_root.
[11:17] <Vanfanel> I copied the contents in /opt/rpi_root from my Pi's SD
[11:17] <fuzzie> right, but how did you build the cross-compiler?
[11:18] <fuzzie> I assume your glibc problems are because you're linking against the toolchain-supplied libraries, and your libSDL.so on your rpi requires newer ones. But as you can tell I am not quite awake.
[11:19] <fuzzie> and your crosscompiler is expecting this arm-bcm2708hardfp-linux-gnueabi prefix rather than the arm-linux-gnueabihf on your rpi
[11:19] <fuzzie> probably there's a nice way to change that, but this is deep into stuff I don't know
[11:19] <Vanfanel> I didn't build it, I got it from here: https://github.com/raspberrypi/tools.git
[11:20] <Vanfanel> fuzzie: I also have arm-linux-gnueabihf-* tools installed
[11:21] <Vanfanel> maybe I should try that host alias
[11:21] <Vanfanel> instead of the bcm2708 stuff
[11:22] <fuzzie> at a glance it seems like -B or something like 'GCC_EXEC_PREFIX=arm-linux-gnueabihf make' works, buuut it also changes the prefix used for invoking the toolchain, so this is not v.helpful :)
[11:23] <fuzzie> so yes I would definitely not keep going down my nice path into crazyland.
[11:25] <Vanfanel> fuzzie: got it to build with the arm-linux-gnueabihf host alias :)
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[11:43] <Vanfanel> fuzzie: but the resulting executable segfaults.. :(
[11:45] <Vanfanel> back to the bcm2708 host alias, I guess...
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[13:54] <[]Alf> hello
[13:56] <[]Alf> could someone help me with the answer to the antispambot question about "leisure suit suigi" to register for the forum? i know it's larry, but i have no clue what would be the right answer :/
[13:56] <[]Alf> *luigi
[13:59] <[]Alf> or maybe someone could help me with a bug while playing dreamweb?
[14:01] <fuzzie> for the forum question: answer is *m*a*r*i*o* (without the stars). you're welcome to ask about dreamweb though
[14:02] <[]Alf> thx
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[14:18] <salty-horse> Brian Moriarty: "To experience LOOM as it was actually developed in 1989/90, obtain the original EGA .LFL data (78 files, 2,151,598 bytes total). Use SCUMMVM graphics mode 3X, render mode EGA, AR correct ON, fullscreen OFF. Audio: AdLib, all defaults. Remarkably authentic."
[14:18] <salty-horse> https://twitter.com/ProfBMoriarty/status/578922059302072320
[14:19] <salty-horse> https://twitter.com/ProfBMoriarty/status/578922713584140288
[14:20] <Vanfanel> fullscreen OFF??
[14:21] <salty-horse> doesn't the fullscreen experience depend on your monitor?
[14:22] <salty-horse> oh, people are responding
[14:22] <salty-horse> https://twitter.com/ProfBMoriarty/status/578922713584140288
[14:22] <wjp> I suppose on some monitors/drivers, fullscreen may distort the aspect ratio
[14:22] <wjp> (if they default to stretching)
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[14:30] <GitHub178> [scummvm] m-kiewitz pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/hrfQ
[14:30] <GitHub178> scummvm/master 8463146 Martin Kiewitz: SCI: SQ1VGA: added script patch for bug #6816...
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[14:32] Action: droid2727 is just happy he chose AdLib
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[14:49] <Vanfanel> fuzzie: can you lend me a hand here? http://pastebin.com/c35d3q8h
[14:49] <Vanfanel> as you can see, crt1.o is in one of the -L directories
[14:49] <Vanfanel> I've been hours trying to make it work
[14:50] <Vanfanel> if anybody knows how to help cross-compiling on the Pi, it would be great
[14:51] <WooShell> meow =^.^=
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[15:04] <GitHub80> [scummvm] m-kiewitz pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/hrcE
[15:04] <GitHub80> scummvm/master 7f9f305 Martin Kiewitz: SCI: improve debug output for signature mismatch...
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[15:05] <Raziel^> Strangerke!!!
[15:16] <SylvainTV> Strangerke !!!
[15:17] Action: Raziel^ puts up Oreo's and milk...
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[15:23] <Raziel^> uuuh, neat, my wiki login still works :-)
[15:23] <Raziel^> off we go...
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[15:31] <Raziel^> Anyone know what format to use for the wiki bug entries (so they go straight to the relevant bug entries in scummvm's tracker?)
[15:31] <Raziel^> since sf.net change their bug numbering some of the wiki links are dead
[15:32] <Raziel^> {{BugTrack|num=3445}} doesn't work either
[15:37] <m_kiewitz> Raziel^: {{BugTrackSF|id=xxx}}
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[15:38] <Raziel^> m_kiewitz: sweet, thank you :-)
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[15:52] <Raziel^> is peres still working on scummvm sometimes?
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[17:02] <DrMcCoy> http://mixnmojo.com/news/Brian-Moriartys-Loom-advice-Buy-VGA-play-EGA
[17:03] <DrMcCoy> Oh, okay, I'm a few hours too late, it seems
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[17:25] <salty-horse> DrMcCoy, :P
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[18:10] <m_kiewitz> DrMcCoy: is that even legal? Buying one version and then playing another version?
[18:11] <m_kiewitz> maybe one should push GOG to release both
[18:11] <DrMcCoy> IANAL, but from my understanding, that's of course not legal
[18:11] <DrMcCoy> And IIRC, the official ScummVM position was always that this is not something we support
[18:13] <DrMcCoy> So those tweets...yeah, not good, IMHO
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[18:20] <m_kiewitz> DrMcCoy: someone should really tell GOG to push for the EGA version too. A comment says that for Zak McKracken you get FM Towns + EGA, so why didn't they do this for EGA
[18:20] <m_kiewitz> s/EGA/Loom lol
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[19:00] <LordHoto> wjp: He should probably just suggest OpenGL with AR and fullscreen in that case :-P
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[19:28] <eriktorbjorn> m_kiewitz: Judging by some vague posts around http://www.gog.com/forum/general/release_loom_1d5d3/page3 they're at least aware of the EGA version.
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[19:32] <m_kiewitz> eriktorbjorn: they say - "There's always 1 of 2 reasons:
[19:32] <m_kiewitz> " - "Legal" - "Technical". EGA Loom works in ScummVM, so it must be "legal"
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[19:33] <m_kiewitz> Are the different versions owned by different companies? It's really weird
[19:33] <LordHoto> It doesn't seem to make too much sense.
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[19:35] <m_kiewitz> right, the games aren't sold anywhere else, which means not selling it results in piracy and/or used copies being bought. Which means no money for the actual owner
[19:36] <somaen> m_kiewitz: You get FM Towns + V2 for Zak.
[19:36] <somaen> I guess some may miss V1.
[19:36] <m_kiewitz> somaen: yes and that's great. But they didn't do that for Loom
[19:36] <somaen> Well, ownership of rights is a mess
[19:36] <LordHoto> somaen: Or Amiga versions, or Atari ST, or C64
[19:36] <m_kiewitz> I think you either get FM Towns Loom or VGA Loom. idk. But you definitely do not get EGA Loom
[19:36] <somaen> IIRC, No One Lives Forever is a quagmire to get the rights too.
[19:37] <LordHoto> it's the DOS CD version of Loom AFAIK
[19:37] <somaen> Since no one knows for sure who owns what rights anymore.
[19:37] <eriktorbjorn> Zak v1 would be interesting for historical reasons, but I haven't even gotten around to playing v2 yet. :-)
[19:37] <m_kiewitz> eriktorbjorn: me neither. I also haven't played through so many Sierra games despite me having bought multiple versions of some
[19:38] <somaen> Well, the question is where you do a cut off wrt what versions are considered "interesting".
[19:38] <somaen> Should any effort be put into getting the Amiga-versions of games for instance?
[19:38] <m_kiewitz> somaen: EGA Loom has all the content, but "poor" graphics. That's why people want EGA Loom. VGA Loom has speech and such, but is missing lots of stuff
[19:38] <somaen> I'd guess that the technical side would be very feasible there, with an Amiga emulator for instance, but then you'd have to license kickstart-roms too...
[19:39] <LordHoto> For many SCUMM games the Amiga version runs fine with ScummVM too. The big exceptions being MI2 and Indy4, I guess.
[19:40] <somaen> Is that "fine", or "equivalent to what WinUAE can do", particularly sound wise?
[19:40] <somaen> Since I hear a lot of talk about the sound being superior in the amiga-versions.
[19:40] <eriktorbjorn> m_kiewitz: To be fair, the CD talkie version of Loom also adds some stuff that wasn't in the EGA version, which makes both versions interesting to me at least. I prefer the original text though.
[19:40] <LordHoto> I think most of the "sound being superior in Amiga-versions" is just what people listened to first/prefer.
[19:41] <LordHoto> But yeah, MI2 and Indy4 miss original sound output in ScummVM. Which is why I listed them as big exceptions.
[19:41] <m_kiewitz> eriktorbjorn: i like CD talkie as well. It was the first CD game, that I bought back then.
[19:41] <m_kiewitz> i didn't know that they added extra stuff to CD talkie. Interesting.
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[19:42] <LordHoto> somaen: I think all earlier SCUMM games with Amiga ports have actual Amiga sound support nowadays.
[19:42] <m_kiewitz> LordHoto: why is that? Did they use special drivers? different music format?
[19:42] <eriktorbjorn> m_kiewitz: The scene where Chaos appears is longer in the CD version. (And also has a rather unfortunate typo that ScummVM works around. :-)
[19:42] <LordHoto> m_kiewitz: Special formats/drivers.
[19:43] <m_kiewitz> urgh, why
[19:43] <LordHoto> Because it's Amiga.
[19:43] <m_kiewitz> yes, but the other games work, so they changed formats for those 2 games on Amiga?
[19:43] <LordHoto> Yes, MI2 and Indy4 are the iMuse games.
[19:43] <LordHoto> Earlier ones used a much more primitive sound output/engine.
[19:43] <m_kiewitz> oh right, nvm. day of the tentacle was never released for Amiga?
[19:44] <LordHoto> Not that I know.
[19:44] <LordHoto> Indy4 should be the last supported one.
[19:44] <m_kiewitz> ok, i never owned one, so i don't know
[19:45] <LordHoto> Too bad the whole Indy4 Amiga sound driver looks totally insane.
[19:45] <LordHoto> I started to look a bit into that one when I fixed the palette issues we had.
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[19:45] <m_kiewitz> totally insane?
[19:46] <LordHoto> Well, it's layers of similar functionallity chained sometimes and I never found anything which loads the actual sound resources.
[19:46] <LordHoto> Then again, I didn't look into the actual resource code.
[19:47] <LordHoto> I hate to say it, but even the m68k Macintosh driver was easy to do. And that one uses sample based instruments too.
[19:47] <m_kiewitz> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W84GMIxOJrw doesn't sound as good as on PC
[19:47] <LordHoto> No no no
[19:47] <LordHoto> You got it all wrong
[19:47] <m_kiewitz> oh well, maybe they used an emulator
[19:47] <LordHoto> it sounds superior
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[19:48] <m_kiewitz> but that playthrough was recorded on emulator and sounds so bad because of that?
[19:48] <LordHoto> No, it sounds superior.
[19:48] <LordHoto> Just ask the Amiga people about it.
[19:49] <eriktorbjorn> m_kiewizt: The "Chaos" scene from the talkie version is about 13 minutes into https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0aU8asD6nc and the EGA version is about 1 hour and 28 minutes into https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoqOUMNwndY
[19:49] <LordHoto> I think we had some posts in the forums which complained about MI2/Indy4 Amiga music missing. They said it is so much better than what the DOS version has.
[19:50] <eriktorbjorn> Hmm... the image seems a bit cut off on the left side on the latter. Oh well.
[19:50] <m_kiewitz> well, i think nothing beats MT-32 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82nbF8_Ovfo
[19:50] <m_kiewitz> but i guess they are used to the amiga one. idk.
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[19:51] <LordHoto> I pretty much prefer AdLib for SCUMM games.
[19:51] <LordHoto> Then again, I'm used to AdLib for those.
[19:51] <m_kiewitz> i played those with adlib back then, yeah. but i really like the mt-32 music too
[19:51] <eriktorbjorn> And I pointed a bit too early into both, I guess. Another "oh well" moment. :-)
[19:51] <LordHoto> But, for example, for Gabriel Knight I definitely prefer using GM with my SC-55 instead of using AdLib.
[19:51] <droid2727> Screw that
[19:51] <droid2727> AdLib 100% of the time!
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[19:52] <LordHoto> The Sierra games have a strange AdLib track sometimes... and the sound effects always seemed awful to me.
[19:52] <m_kiewitz> eriktorbjorn: believe it or not, but I actually never fully played through Loom. As a child I bought it. Played a bit. Got lost. And then stopped playing it.
[19:53] <m_kiewitz> LordHoto: that's why you should have played Sierra games with a Soundblaster card :P
[19:53] <LordHoto> I only played Gabriel Knight recently, like 2 or 3 years back.
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[19:53] <LordHoto> I think the only Sierra adventure I played as a child was KQ7. And I could never finish it because it crashed in the final scene.
[19:53] <eriktorbjorn> LordHoto: The one thing I miss about my old computer is that I had a sound card with MIDI support in that one. For ScummVM I can use FluidSynth and it'll sound almost identical to what I had, but I've had less luck with DOSBox. (I should be able to hook up a software synth through ALSA, but it didn't work very well when I tried it, and I haven't bothered to experiment any further since then.)
[19:54] <m_kiewitz> oh, well. i loved the wave track, but yeah the regular music suffers when played via adlib. Sierra games from before that sound better
[19:54] <LordHoto> But Sierra adventures are usually too annoying for me.
[19:54] <m_kiewitz> LordHoto: lol, yeah the later Sierra games were quite a mess. i started with Quest for Glory 1 back then and it worked flawlessly
[19:55] <LordHoto> So far I only got through KQ6 and GK1.
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[19:55] <m_kiewitz> (the EGA original of course, not the bad VGA remake)
[19:55] <LordHoto> Well, I think KQ7 might count, because all I had to do was use something with something and then it should've ended.
[19:55] <LordHoto> But instead it thought it would be nice to just crash.
[19:56] <m_kiewitz> quest for glory 4 had some similar really weird ending glitch
[19:56] <LordHoto> When I started up KQ7 a few years back, I couldn't really understand how I ever managed to sit through that one though.
[19:56] <eriktorbjorn> LordHoto: I like GK1, despite some annoying bits.
[19:56] <m_kiewitz> ah, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUnroFPwFaQ
[19:56] <LordHoto> eriktorbjorn: Yes, it's a good game. Unlike so many other Sierra adventures :-P
[19:57] <m_kiewitz> i would really like to fix those glitches in ScummVM with our script patcher
[19:57] <m_kiewitz> eriktorbjorn: annoying bits in GK1????
[19:58] <LordHoto> something something "tracking device" something something
[19:59] <m_kiewitz> QfG4 glitch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUnroFPwFaQ at around 3:00
[19:59] <m_kiewitz> lol
[19:59] <LordHoto> Did anyone play the GK1 remake?
[19:59] <eriktorbjorn> m_kiewitz: Dodging zombies, or whatever they were, was annoying, I thought.
[20:00] <m_kiewitz> i didn't. couldn't accept that they re-recorded the voices with different actors.
[20:00] <LordHoto> I had the feeling the voice acting was horrible.
[20:00] <LordHoto> Exactly.
[20:00] <LordHoto> Gabriel sounds like a total douche.
[20:00] <m_kiewitz> eriktorbjorn: i think that part was computer speed related. not sure
[20:00] <m_kiewitz> i loved the original voices in Gabriel Knight 1
[20:00] <m_kiewitz> eriktorbjorn: i didn't really have a problem back then when i played it. but i played it on a slow computer.
[20:02] <eriktorbjorn> I was more annoying by GK2 than GK1, though. There were parts of it that felt like walking around until I had clicked on every hotspot, at which point the game arbitrarily decided to trigger the next part of the plot. It felt almost like one of those "hidden object" games then.
[20:02] <m_kiewitz> LordHoto: i also didn't like what they did with the graphics. the old ones look somewhat superior despite them being low-res
[20:02] <m_kiewitz> the cutscenes however, i actually like how they look
[20:02] <LordHoto> Well, I prefered the darker style of the original too.
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[20:03] <m_kiewitz> Sierra artists were really great. What they managed to do with only 320x200x256 is insane.
[20:04] <m_kiewitz> strangely the hi-res games failed to deliver. at least for me.
[20:04] <LordHoto> I am not a huge fan of the graphics of most Sierra adventures.
[20:05] <LordHoto> They are fine but not great to me.
[20:06] <eriktorbjorn> m_kiewitz: I enjoyed Leisure Suit Larry 7 more than some of the earlier ones. I thought Lighthouse and Rama were disappointing though.
[20:07] <Mattnpat_> Maniac Mansion 2 still looks incredibly good.
[20:07] <m_kiewitz> eriktorbjorn: i haven't played larry 7 yet. Larry 5+6 were really great.
[20:07] <Lightkey> I can't believe it's not butter
[20:07] <m_kiewitz> yeah, lucasarts did a great job as well. I personally think lucasarts started to really shine with VGA graphics
[20:08] <LordHoto> Loom EGA is pretty great too.
[20:08] <m_kiewitz> agreed
[20:08] <LordHoto> But I can't say I like the style of MM and Zak too much.
[20:08] <Mattnpat_> I liked Loom's graphics.
[20:09] <Mattnpat_> I haven't played the LSL games yet.
[20:09] <Lightkey> Mattnpat_: ask LordHoto about LOOM"
[20:10] <m_kiewitz> larry 1 is a classic, larry 2 was meh, larry 3 was better, larry 5 is really good and larry 6 is even better
[20:10] <eriktorbjorn> I really should play Maniac Mansion one of these days. I still remember when I first heard about it. It was a product catalog from 1988, but I was more interested in the Infocom games (that filled most of it).
[20:11] <Mattnpat_> Damn.
[20:11] <Lightkey> Leisure Suit Larry 4 was my favourite
[20:11] <Mattnpat_> I wish I was alive in the 1980s.
[20:11] <Mattnpat_> Mostly for the computers.
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[20:12] <Mattnpat_> Not for all the other shitty 80s stuff.
[20:12] <LordHoto> I think it's much better to be alive today if you talk about computers.
[20:12] <LordHoto> :-P
[20:12] <eriktorbjorn> The product catalog can be found at the end of http://infodoc.plover.net/nzt/NZT7.2.pdf if anyone wants to see how much Maniac Mansion cost back then. :-)
[20:12] <Mattnpat_> I have an affinity for old computers.
[20:13] Nick change: Mattnpat_ -> Mattnpat
[20:13] <LordHoto> Well, I can pretty much say I wouldn't want to use any of those systems in daily life nowadays.
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[20:15] <LordHoto> Old stuff is cool (sometimes), but there's usually a good reason why it's not used widely anymore. :-P
[20:15] <m_kiewitz> LordHoto: game quality was way better back then, so at least that's a little positive
[20:15] <Mattnpat> yeah.
[20:16] <eriktorbjorn> I don't miss loading programs from cassette tapes.
[20:16] <Mattnpat> Oh, come on.
[20:16] <Mattnpat> The Commodore was amazing.
[20:16] <LordHoto> I am not sure whether game quality was really way better back then. There were a lot of crappy games back then too.
[20:16] <Mattnpat> It's a great computer.
[20:16] <Mattnpat> And my computer is like, so fucking shitty, so I like to play old games a lot.
[20:17] <m_kiewitz> sure, there was crap. But quite a few games just worked and had almost no glitches and bugs
[20:17] <Mattnpat> Pretty much.
[20:17] <LordHoto> I can't say I can complain too much about most new games I play nowadays either.
[20:17] <m_kiewitz> for example Quest for Glory 1. It was an open world. And I think until now we found exactly 1 single bug
[20:18] <LordHoto> But it is a much simpler game than the big open world games nowadays, right? :-)
[20:18] <m_kiewitz> sure, but even linear corridor shooter nowadays are buggy.
[20:18] <LordHoto> The ones from the well known developers?
[20:19] <Mattnpat> Sadly, I could never get into really old games.
[20:19] <Mattnpat> But I'm trying.
[20:19] <m_kiewitz> well at least on consoles they are. I'm not really playing on PC nowadays.
[20:19] <eriktorbjorn> I haven't played the game, but http://www.mobygames.com/game/fire-ant has to be my favorite "that doesn't look like the game on the cover" from the eighties.
[20:19] <Mattnpat> I have no idea how to play commodore games.
[20:19] <Mattnpat> Like, I literally can not even load them.
[20:20] <m_kiewitz> i mean even a game like Uncharted 3 had all sorts of issues in the linear single player game
[20:20] <LordHoto> I never played that one.
[20:20] <m_kiewitz> sure, it weren't THAT many, but there were quite a few during my playthrough. and i bought the game months after release and it got patched several times until then
[20:20] <LordHoto> But if I say all these speedrunners nowadays using crazy bugs in old games to skip sections etc., then I am not really convinced that the game quality back then was way better ;-).
[20:21] <m_kiewitz> and i played Splinter Cell Blacklist on multiple consoles. And it's buggy on all of them (including PC)
[20:21] <Mattnpat> Oh, I was gonna ask if people could possibly make their own engine reimplementations and add them to scummvm.
[20:21] <Mattnpat> Is that possible?
[20:22] <m_kiewitz> yes, but i'm talking about regular glitches, that don't need to be found. I fell through the floor in several games. Then there was console freezing. Then there were other issues like for example in coop of Splinter Cell
[20:22] <m_kiewitz> where both players died, but the game didn't end. Instead it continued on. And those aren't rare. They happen all the time. It's embarassing.
[20:22] <LordHoto> I can't say I had such bugs often in all my recent gaming years.
[20:23] <m_kiewitz> i guess it depends on what you play.
[20:23] <LordHoto> eriktorbjorn: I can't see what you mean there. ;-)
[20:23] <LordHoto> So, probably like back then :-P.
[20:23] <LordHoto> Then again, probably the worst were late 90/early 2000 games.
[20:23] <m_kiewitz> well, i personally play a lot
[20:23] <m_kiewitz> yes, Tomb Raider 3 made me quit PC gaming back then.
[20:23] <LordHoto> I remember those having annoying crashes etc.
[20:24] <m_kiewitz> i had sound issues. And crashes. And graphic issues. And when I changed the video card driver, some other games had different glitches.
[20:24] <m_kiewitz> i then gave up. And some years later I bought a playstation 2.
[20:24] <LordHoto> I guess that's what you get from more complex systems.
[20:25] <m_kiewitz> and that one worked almost perfectly.
[20:25] <Mattnpat> I hate 3D gaming mostly just because of all the glitches I almost always encounter
[20:25] <m_kiewitz> well, Tomb Raider 1 worked just fine (was a DOS game). Tomb Raider 2 worked somewhat fine too (Windows 9x game) and then it went worse and worse.
[20:26] <m_kiewitz> And i played Tomb Raider 1 using software render and 3Dfx render
[20:26] <LordHoto> Ah 3Dfx.
[20:26] <LordHoto> I remember playing Prince of Persia 3D and having a really strange sound bug where all the voice overs were simply not understandable at all.
[20:26] <LordHoto> :-)
[20:26] <Mattnpat> I also don't play a lot of newer games because of the fact that I use Linux.
[20:27] <Mattnpat> And I refuse to go back to windows.
[20:27] <m_kiewitz> prince of persia, those games were also great. The ones back on PC were great. The ones on PS2 were great.
[20:27] <m_kiewitz> And then they re-released the PS2 ones on PS3, and there were loads of glitches. Buggy sound and so on
[20:27] <LordHoto> I think Prince of Persia 3D was the worst Prince of Persia I played. I never finished it though...
[20:28] <LordHoto> Sands of Time was quite fun.
[20:28] <m_kiewitz> companies simply don't care anymore most of the time. But yeah, Prince of persia 3D was terrible
[20:28] <LordHoto> I wouldn't say it was terrible.
[20:28] <LordHoto> But it had these huge annoying levels later on.
[20:28] <m_kiewitz> well, Sands of Time is what a 3D Prince of persia should be
[20:29] <m_kiewitz> Demon's and Dark Souls for example also worked really fine. I think I never had a single freeze or crash.
[20:29] <LordHoto> Dark Souls? Isn't that that game which is buggy as hell and everyone just calls them "features"? :-)
[20:29] <m_kiewitz> and Dark Souls 1 is fully open world.
[20:30] <m_kiewitz> buggy? i can't remember a single bug. It's somewhat old school game design, where you shouldn't rush into areas without actually thinking what you are doing
[20:30] <LordHoto> I gave Dark Souls 2 a try on PC. But it's just unplayable on PC without any console controller.
[20:30] <m_kiewitz> oh right, ON PC. Yeah, it's a mess on PC.
[20:30] <LordHoto> I heard a lot of bugs where things get pushed down cliffs etc.
[20:31] <m_kiewitz> on consoles it works perfectly
[20:31] <m_kiewitz> and on PC there are lots of cheaters too.
[20:31] <LordHoto> where players used that to skip things etc.
[20:31] <LordHoto> actually, I have Dark Souls 1 a try on PC.
[20:31] <m_kiewitz> console Dark Souls 1 has 2 areas, that are not that great. One area has a bad framerate (but other than that it's awesome) and another area seems to be not-finished
[20:31] <LordHoto> Now that I think about it.
[20:32] <LordHoto> But the controls were really sluggish and the mouse "fix" still featured terrible controls.
[20:32] <m_kiewitz> well, skipping areas is actually really a feature in Dark Souls 1. You can for example select a key as starting gift and that will open quite a few doors for you
[20:33] <LordHoto> I talked about boss fights etc.
[20:33] <m_kiewitz> and that will make it possible for you to skip a few bosses and so on. But the game will be way harder that way.
[20:33] <Mattnpat> I wish my computer could actually run those games.
[20:33] <m_kiewitz> so it's only really useful for experienced players. The game was designed for consoles, so PC mouse control will suck of course :P
[20:33] <LordHoto> But appareantly Dark Souls' controls are meant to be slugglish as hell. It's a "design choice" to make the game "hard".
[20:34] <LordHoto> That's what people keep telling me.
[20:34] <m_kiewitz> Demon's Souls was the one that they made before Dark Souls 1. And that's a PS3 exclusive. It's a bit rough around the edges and they never wanted to release it in the west
[20:34] <LordHoto> Doesn't sound too convincing to me though.
[20:34] <m_kiewitz> nah, when you use a controller (not mouse/keyboard) the controls are actually perfect
[20:34] <waltervn> Dark Souls \o/
[20:34] Action: waltervn wonders off again
[20:34] <waltervn> *wanders, even
[20:34] <m_kiewitz> lol
[20:35] <LordHoto> You mean it actually responds to your input without a delay then? I got told by people who played with controler and keyboard/mouse that it's not too different in that aspect.
[20:36] <m_kiewitz> the souls games are nothing like for example Devil May Cry
[20:36] <LordHoto> I mean, it looked like a decent game from what I played. But the controls are unbearable.
[20:36] <m_kiewitz> and you don't even have to have great reflexes. Reflexes help in case you want to parry, but you don't really have to parry at all.
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[20:37] <m_kiewitz> i guess you should have probably started with Demon's Souls 1
[20:37] <LordHoto> I don't own any gaming consoles.
[20:37] <m_kiewitz> because that's the first game. When you are used to how fighting works, then everything will make sense.
[20:38] <LordHoto> I hate the controls with those controllers.
[20:38] <LordHoto> I remember playing games with a friend on his PS2.
[20:38] <LordHoto> God, those awful controllers.
[20:38] <m_kiewitz> have you tried Dark Souls 1 with a console-like controller?
[20:38] <LordHoto> Much too small.
[20:39] <m_kiewitz> sure, they are really bad for shooters and such. Inaccurate and all of that. But in Dark Souls 1 you have a lock-on feature and you don't really shoot. You don't need perfect accuracy.
[20:39] <LordHoto> I know.
[20:39] <LordHoto> You have that on PC too.
[20:40] <LordHoto> I was more talking in general, I never really liked playing with a controller.
[20:40] <m_kiewitz> Dark Souls 2 however is really badly designed. It also has broken hitboxes and such. Graphics are better, but that's it.
[20:40] <m_kiewitz> i guess you have to get used to it
[20:40] <LordHoto> Maybe.
[20:40] <m_kiewitz> Demon's Souls + Dark Souls 1 have really perfect hitboxes.
[20:40] <LordHoto> But usually I felt like I got cramps in my hands after playing for a while.
[20:41] <LordHoto> Because all those controllers felt much too small.
[20:41] <m_kiewitz> And some weapons take longer to strike, but that's all on purpose
[20:41] <m_kiewitz> there are also other weapons that strike almost instantly, but most of the time they are weaker
[20:41] <LordHoto> See, I already hated how long it takes to turn and the responsiveness of your attack commands in Dark Souls.
[20:41] <m_kiewitz> i think there is a large xbox controller. Should work on PC
[20:42] <m_kiewitz> oh, now i see. Well that depends on what you are wearing
[20:42] <LordHoto> It felt like I issued an attack command and then had to wait 5 seconds before he even started. (Of course that's exaggerated)
[20:42] <m_kiewitz> you can for example play semi-nude and that's way more responsive.
[20:42] <Mattnpat> At least it's realistic.
[20:42] <m_kiewitz> when you wear heavy stuff and also hold a heavy weapon, then you will be slugish. It's on purpose.
[20:42] <LordHoto> Yes, that all makes sense and other games have that too.
[20:43] <LordHoto> But in DS everything felt sluggish, even at the start when you don't wear anything.
[20:43] <m_kiewitz> i for example played through the game semi-nude on really low level. You can be really fast and quick
[20:43] <LordHoto> Moving, turning, rolling etc.
[20:43] <Mattnpat> Hmm.
[20:43] <eriktorbjorn> By the way, has anyone here tried the Linux version of "The Inner World". The game runs for me, but not the cutscenes.
[20:44] <m_kiewitz> those games don't explain most of it, that's why someone who starts with them and especially the 2nd game, will have a hard time
[20:44] <LordHoto> I remember the Prince of Persia 3D controls being sluggish/delayed somewhat similar to the Dark Souls 1 controls.
[20:45] <LordHoto> So, from my experience it just felt like bad controls.
[20:45] <LordHoto> It's a bit ridiculous if you start the game and in the first room moving annoys you already.
[20:46] <LordHoto> But if you get over the controls, that game is probably fun.
[20:46] <LordHoto> It didn't seem that bad otherwise.
[20:47] <Mattnpat> Meh,
[20:48] <m_kiewitz> well, you also got stamina. You can't run endlessly and so on. And as i said - they are not action hack and slash titles
[20:49] <LordHoto> Yes, I got all that. But that's all besides my point.
[20:49] <LordHoto> My point is that the controls give you no real response and that makes it sluggish.
[20:49] <Mattnpat> Kind of like SoTC.
[20:50] <m_kiewitz> i don't really understand
[20:50] <m_kiewitz> which class did you choose at the start?
[20:50] <LordHoto> You press move and it takes like half a second before your character decides to move.
[20:51] <LordHoto> I can't remember actually.
[20:51] <m_kiewitz> maybe there is something seriously wrong with the PC port, idk
[20:52] <m_kiewitz> have you tried to use the usermodification for it? that allows for higher framerates and so on
[20:52] <LordHoto> Yeah.
[20:52] <LordHoto> I tried all that.
[20:52] <LordHoto> didn't really make too much of a difference for me.
[20:52] <m_kiewitz> just watch this starting at 4:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_llHIzy5fgY
[20:53] <m_kiewitz> that's a level 1 deprived playthrough
[20:53] <LordHoto> I saw videos. But you can't see how the controls work/feel in videos.
[20:54] <m_kiewitz> well, i haven't played it on PC obviously, but never had any issues with the controls on consoles
[20:54] <m_kiewitz> and you see that the player is able to almost instantly roll away, block and strike
[20:55] <LordHoto> Well, actually, I can't see when he issued the command and when his character actually started doing it.
[20:55] <LordHoto> :-)
[20:55] <m_kiewitz> lol, right. But he reacts pretty often and has not that much time to do so.
[20:56] <m_kiewitz> i guess you should really buy a console at some point and try Demon's Souls :P
[20:56] <LordHoto> I think I have more interesting things to spent my money on.
[20:56] <m_kiewitz> Dark Souls 1 was quite a step up. In Demon's Souls the game makes actually fun of the player. The first boss for example is basically slime :P
[20:57] <m_kiewitz> well ok, but i can only tell you that the games are really great and something has to be wrong somewhere.
[20:57] <LordHoto> I heard enough playing saying they are great.
[20:57] <m_kiewitz> it's a shame that the first one is PS3 exclusive. They should have ported that one to other hardware too
[20:58] <LordHoto> Otherwise I wouldn't have tried it.
[20:58] <LordHoto> oh snap, it's nearly 10pm already.
[20:58] <m_kiewitz> yeah, but the PC version of the first is very bad in any case.
[20:58] <LordHoto> Yes, it's just a milking money.
[20:58] <LordHoto> Anyway, bbl
[20:58] <m_kiewitz> quickish port, right. bye
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[21:10] <Mattnpat> Gotta go.
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[22:58] <GitHub118> [scummvm] m-kiewitz pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/hiqh
[22:58] <GitHub118> scummvm/master 1f65284 Martin Kiewitz: SCI: QFG1VGA: added script patch fixes bug #6706...
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[00:00] --- Sat Mar 21 2015