ScummVM IRC Log - 06 Mar 2015

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[00:57] <GitHub81> [scummvm] bluegr pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/xxnE
[00:57] <GitHub81> scummvm/master 9a49493 Filippos Karapetis: DEVTOOLS: Add support for linking with SDL 2.0 in create_project...
[00:57] <GitHub81> scummvm/master 6cb0a4c Filippos Karapetis: SDL: Fix compilation with SDL 2.0 under MSVC...
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[01:05] <somaen> SDL2 gives me doublebuffersdl-mixer.cpp:56:17: error: no matching function for call to 'SDL_CreateThread'
[01:05] <somaen> That's SDL 2.0.3
[01:05] <LordHoto> right, it's only used by OS X
[01:08] <somaen> There's a new char* name field in the middle there
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[01:08] <somaen> also, some breakage on OBJC-stuff at link time
[01:08] <somaen> specifically, taskbar and browser seem to get problems
[01:09] <LordHoto> guess you'll have to give the created thread a name: https://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL_CreateThread
[01:10] <somaen> Apparently we need to link some additional libraries when not using SDL1 too.
[01:11] <LordHoto> could be
[01:11] <somaen> I suppose SDL2 moved on to Cocoa, and thus depends on it.
[01:11] <somaen> Not sure where to pick THAT up in configure though
[01:11] <clone2727> SDL1 is using Cocoa too
[01:11] <LordHoto> but sdl2-config should handle additional need for Cocoa?
[01:11] <somaen> currently just hacking the SDL-backend case there to figure it out.
[01:11] <somaen> Well, the missing libs stem from OUR code though
[01:12] <somaen> browser, appmenu and taskbar.
[01:12] <LordHoto> so they removed frameworks added to LDFLAGS?
[01:13] <somaen> Might be, because plugging them in explicitly in configure fixes it
[01:13] <somaen> I guess this does not increase LordHoto's appreciation of SDL2?
[01:14] <LordHoto> I think it rather negatively affects my view on OS X :-P
[01:14] <somaen> At a quick glance, readding -lobjc -framework Cocoa explicitly fixes it.
[01:14] <somaen> So, the question then is, can we cleanly plug that back in for the SDL2 case?
[01:14] <Sir_Burpalot> Is there an ETA on SDL2 support on OS X?
[01:15] <LordHoto> It's a bit annoying that we set _sdlversion (3068) after this big platform case switch starting at 2067
[01:15] <LordHoto> so you can't just check the sdl version there
[01:15] <LordHoto> Sir_Burpalot: nope, why?
[01:15] <somaen> Actually -framework Cocoa seems to be enough
[01:15] <Sir_Burpalot> You can let me know if you need someone with a Retina MacBook Pro to test it.
[01:16] <somaen> IIRC, a lot of people want SDL2 in their stuff, just to get around the "hey, dualscreen, let's center the fullscreen window"-issue on linux.
[01:16] <LordHoto> somaen: I am pretty sure we can just always add that in the case for darwin at line 2184
[01:16] <LordHoto> somaen: Linux isn't OS X though? :-)
[01:17] <Sir_Burpalot> After all, part of the reason SDL1 sucks is because it has no HiDPI awareness, at least not on OS X.
[01:17] <somaen> LordHoto: Just expand 2197?
[01:17] <LordHoto> somaen: probably
[01:17] <LordHoto> somaen: or add a new line to avoid having a too long line
[01:17] <somaen> Sir_Burpalot: You are talking HiDPI for software made to emulate stuff made when 800x600 was hires
[01:17] <somaen> LordHoto: With a comment about SDL2?
[01:17] <LordHoto> Sir_Burpalot: What exaclty is the problem with HiDPI
[01:17] <LordHoto> somaen: maybe
[01:18] <Sir_Burpalot> LordHoto: the problem is that only half of the native DPI of the screen is presented to ScummVM, which results in inferior scaling.
[01:18] <LordHoto> Sir_Burpalot: what?
[01:19] <Sir_Burpalot> I can post screenshots if you want to see what I'm talking about.
[01:19] <LordHoto> sure
[01:19] <somaen> Issues like that are not OS X only though.
[01:20] <somaen> I've seen other apps behave weirdly on hi-dpi windows.
[01:20] <somaen> I.e. cmd.exe, which is unreadable.
[01:20] <LordHoto> I somehow have the doubt this is any issue specific to SDL1.
[01:20] <LordHoto> But rather us just setting a ridiculously low resolution compared to what you would expect
[01:21] <LordHoto> "this isn't"
[01:21] <Sir_Burpalot> somaen: on Windows, though, you can force a non-HiDPI-aware app to run without scaling.
[01:21] <Sir_Burpalot> My attempts to do that with ScummVM on OS X have not been successful.
[01:21] <LordHoto> So, basically you want us to fix a shortcoming of OS X? ;-)
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[01:22] <GitHub168> [scummvm] somaen pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/xxRG

en: CONFIGURE: Always link against Cocoa on OS X, since SDL2 doesn't seem to pick it up for us.
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[01:22] <Sir_Burpalot> Even though Windows allows you to disable DPI scaling for individual apps, having no HiDPI awareness is still bad.
[01:22] <somaen> There, fixed the CONFIGURE issue, not sure if the SDL_CreateThread is just a matter of an ifndef and an empty string for the name.
[01:22] <LordHoto> Sir_Burpalot: But that's not a simple matter of building with SDL2...
[01:23] <clone2727> Sir_Burpalot: No, Mac OS X deciding it wants to automatically scale up apps is bad
[01:23] <LordHoto> somaen: I guess you should just add a "#if SDL_VERSION_AT_LEAST(2, 0, 0)" and pass some name like "ScummVM Double Buffer Mixer"
[01:25] <Sir_Burpalot> clone2727: what else is OS X supposed to do? Without upscaling, most non-HiDPI-aware apps would be unusable on a screen with a DPI of over 200.
[01:26] <LordHoto> somaen: And see whether it works...
[01:27] <clone2727> Sir_Burpalot: Offer a choice.
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[01:28] <GitHub142> [scummvm] somaen pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/xx0x

en: SDL: Special case the call to SDL_CreateThread for SDL2, since SDL2 requires threads to be named....
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[01:28] <somaen> Sir_Burpalot: If all you want is ScummVM running on SDL2, that last commit should make it possible for you to build it.
[01:28] <somaen> Not that it would be very helpfull though. The only difference I've seen so far, is that it has a black screen for a while before showing the launcher.
[01:28] <LordHoto> But better "support" for displays with a high DPI is definitely a different issue.
[01:29] <somaen> Well, we could feasibly run even higher scalers on High-DPI stuff
[01:29] <LordHoto> somaen: You should check out where that comes from.
[01:29] <LordHoto> somaen: well, GUI...
[01:30] <LordHoto> somaen: it's probably not so nice to use with a high resolution on such displays
[01:30] <LordHoto> somaen: because we don't use bigger fonts etc.
[01:30] <LordHoto> somaen: I mean we could just scale the GUI, but that kind of defeats the purpose?
[01:30] <somaen> The black screen takes up less time if I disable gfx-card switching, so presumably the GL setup goes differently.
[01:31] <somaen> Regular ScummVM also triggers that one though, but probably does so earlier or something like that.
[01:31] <somaen> The GUI is already almost unusable on iPhone.
[01:31] <LordHoto> Start up with SDL 1.2 and SDL 2 seems pretty much the same time for me.
[01:32] <LordHoto> Yes. That reminds me. I wanted to limit the overlay resolution there...
[01:32] <somaen> alt-enter is also broken on SDL2
[01:32] <somaen> it goes to fullscreen, but won't leave
[01:32] <LordHoto> works here
[01:33] <somaen> Only for OpenGL backend though
[01:33] <somaen> Works fine in 1x
[01:33] <LordHoto> odd
[01:33] <Sir_Burpalot> Anyway, I said I'd post screenshots, so here goes: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/97422070/Temp/Screen%20Shot%202015-03-06%20at%2004.20.07.png
[01:33] <somaen> Probably also rids us of the "alt-enter-crashes scummvm"-bug with SDL1.
[01:33] <LordHoto> I tried both OpenGL and 2x and it works
[01:33] <Sir_Burpalot> This is what it would look like if ScummVM had proper HiDPI support: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/97422070/Temp/scummvm_1.png
[01:34] <somaen> Sir_Burpalot: Just move closer to the screen.
[01:34] <clone2727> Sir_Burpalot: And how did you force that?
[01:34] <Sir_Burpalot> I didn't. I took a screenshot without aspect ratio correction and upscaled it in GIMP.
[01:35] <clone2727> The only thing about your first screenshot that's annoying me is the horrible UI design
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[01:36] <Sir_Burpalot> Oh wait.
[01:36] <LordHoto> Sir_Burpalot: Honestly, where's the difference?
[01:36] <Sir_Burpalot> Maybe that was not the best example.
[01:36] <LordHoto> Sir_Burpalot: The first screenshot might have somewhat lighter colors?
[01:36] <Sir_Burpalot> There's actually no difference.
[01:36] <LordHoto> wait
[01:37] <LordHoto> so: ScummVM would look the same with HiDPI support like it does without?
[01:37] <Sir_Burpalot> No, not really. Let me try with a different window size.
[01:45] <Sir_Burpalot> You know, LordHoto, with simple nearest neighbour scaling, maybe there really isn't any difference. But the thing is that if ScummVM had HiDPI awareness, it could do something like this: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/97422070/Temp/scummvm_2.png
[01:47] <LordHoto> So again nearly no difference?
[01:47] <LordHoto> Maybe you should just set the output to "OpenGL" and use it's linear filerting to whatever resolution you want to use
[01:47] <Sir_Burpalot> Of course there's a difference. The pixel rows are now the same height.
[01:49] <Sir_Burpalot> What I did was upscale the 320x200 image to 1280x800 first, with nearest neighbour interpolation, and then to 1280x960, with Lanczos interpolation.
[01:50] <LordHoto> but that's completely unrelated to SDL2
[01:52] <LordHoto> anyway, if you set ScummVM to use 3x+Aspect Ration then it would be similar (do simple pixel multiplying and then correct the aspect), just with a result of 960x720
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[01:52] <LordHoto> *aspect ratio correction
[01:54] <Sir_Burpalot> And then it will get upscaled to 1920x1440 by OS X.
[01:55] <LordHoto> with pixel doubling?
[01:55] <Sir_Burpalot> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/97422070/Temp/Screen%20Shot%202015-03-06%20at%2004.54.49.png
[01:58] <Sir_Burpalot> Alsoand this is an unrelated issuesetting the scaler to 3x causes ScummVM to be slow, with the mouse cursor being laggy and with SCI screen transitions taking up to 7 seconds.
[01:59] <LordHoto> Any specific game where it's easy to test?
[01:59] <LordHoto> KQ1 SCI seems to work just fine with 3x here when I start it and move around a bit
[02:00] <Sir_Burpalot> With "OpenGL (No filtering)", the mouse cursor is fine, and SCI transitions, although still slow, are not that horribly slow.
[02:00] <Sir_Burpalot> LordHoto: are you on OS X?
[02:00] <LordHoto> nope
[02:01] <Sir_Burpalot> Well, the problem I'm describing is specific to OS X on Retina displays.
[02:01] <LordHoto> so, bascially the issue is that your hardware is slow?
[02:02] <LordHoto> I'm pretty sure if SCI transitions on OS X in general are that slow, someone would've asked about it so far.
[02:03] <clone2727> They're broken
[02:03] <clone2727> Well, "slow"
[02:03] <clone2727> It does screen updates too fast
[02:04] <Sir_Burpalot> My hardware is too slow? I hadn't thought of it that way, but yes, I suppose you're right.
[02:04] <clone2727> LordHoto: ie. it does do http://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php/HOWTO-Backends#updateScreen.28.29_method
[02:05] <clone2727> doesn't*
[02:05] <LordHoto> ah, it forces vsync
[02:05] <clone2727> Even without OpenGL
[02:05] <LordHoto> well, then a lot of updateScreen requests will slow things down, yeah
[02:07] <LordHoto> That's something we'll need to fix one day. But it's not specific to OS X on Retina displays.
[02:08] <Sir_Burpalot> The slow screen transitions are just part of the problem.
[02:08] <LordHoto> But it's nothing HiDPI related.
[02:09] <Sir_Burpalot> I think OS X's scaling may be causing screen updates to be slower.
[02:09] <EddieZ> Thank you to all the programmers of ScummVM! :)
[02:09] <LordHoto> Anyone, none of these issues will be fixed just by using SDL2 instead of SDL1.2
[02:09] <Sir_Burpalot> I'll hook up my low-DPI monitor and check.
[02:12] <Sir_Burpalot> Yes, LordHoto. Just like I said, it's not as slow when there's no Retina upscaling.
[02:13] <LordHoto> same ScummVM output setting?
[02:13] <Sir_Burpalot> Yes.
[02:15] <LordHoto> So how does OS X handle when to upscale anyway?
[02:15] <LordHoto> if it's low resolution?
[02:21] <Sir_Burpalot> Windowed apps are always upscaled by default, and they can take advantage of the increased resolution if they have the capability to.
[02:22] <Sir_Burpalot> For instance, applications using the standard Cocoa APIs to display UI elements will automatically get sharper fonts and so on.
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[07:35] <waltervn> morning
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[07:55] <madmoose> morn waltervn
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[08:55] <Raziel^> i have a question, not scummvm related
[08:56] <Raziel^> if i put a gfx card in a slot with only 8 lanes (instead of 16)
[08:56] <Raziel^> what would be the drawback?
[08:57] <Raziel^> i know that the 8x pci-e can be used to crossfire two cards
[08:57] <Raziel^> but what would happen if i put one card in the 8x slot?
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[08:59] <Harekiet> Thought it should just work but slower
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[09:01] <Raziel^> thats what i don't understand, how can one card driving with 16x be slower than two of the same cards crossfired but limited to two 8x
[09:01] <Raziel^> sounds to me the output is the very same
[09:02] <Raziel^> but thats me, no idea about that hardware stuff
[09:02] <Harekiet> you're ussually not really bandwith limited on the bus so having 2 cards should be faster than 1
[09:03] <Raziel^> hmm, ok
[09:04] <Harekiet> Once everything is uploaded to the videocards memory you're only sending commands to the cards to do certain things, not that heavy on the bus traffic
[09:05] <Raziel^> ah, so it's the speed that goes from the pc to the videocard mem?
[09:05] <Raziel^> no wait
[09:05] <Raziel^> the cards sending all the video stuff back
[09:06] <Harekiet> that doesn't go over the pci express bus, that's all handled by the card itself
[09:06] <Harekiet> it's mostly 1 way traffic from the pc/cpu whatever to the card
[09:06] <Raziel^> ah, cool
[09:06] <Raziel^> thanks a lot Harekiet
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[13:31] <GitHub38> [scummvm] dreammaster pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/xh56
[13:31] <GitHub38> scummvm/master 4c88d81 Paul Gilbert: MADS: Fix another incorrect car door opening animation
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[13:42] <GitHub164> [scummvm] dreammaster pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/xhA3
[13:42] <GitHub164> scummvm/master 763a962 Paul Gilbert: MADS: Fix animation of lab door opening
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[17:30] <WooShell> meow =^.^=
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[18:15] <yaz0r> at the loom postmortem talk at gdc
[18:15] <sirlemonhead> yaz0r: nice :)
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[18:33] <jamm> so guys, any news about why we couldn't get into GSoC?
[18:33] <jamm> they're supposed to tell us today, right?
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[18:57] <LordHoto> jamm: basically, they gave new orgs a chance
[18:57] <LordHoto> jamm: and they cut down number of orgs in general
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[20:31] <Lightkey> oh.. what have we, Rex Nebular and the Cosmic Gender Bender and the The Journeyman Project trilogy 60 % off this weekend on GOG.com
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[22:49] <SorcererX> Lightkey: I tried to play Legacy of Time a while ago, it was criticized for having low resolution when it was new.. now it is just horrible.
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[23:01] <droid2727> SorcererX: Legacy of Time horrible? gtfo
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[23:04] <Lightkey> > 640x480
[23:04] <Lightkey> > "The best of the series, a really good adventure that holds up well"
[23:05] <Lightkey> you know what channel you are in, right?
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[23:27] <SorcererX> droid2727: Buried in Time looks way better
[23:28] <droid2727> I like Buried better too, but not because of the graphics
[23:28] <SorcererX> and for instance Zork Nemesis is much better resolution wise, even though it is 2 years older
[23:28] <SorcererX> and is quite similar tech wise
[23:29] <droid2727> Who cares? Is resolution all that makes the game to you?
[23:30] <SorcererX> of course not
[23:34] <droid2727> That seems to he what you're harping on, though
[23:34] <droid2727> be*
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[23:41] <GitHub137> [scummvm] dreammaster pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/pJdb
[23:41] <GitHub137> scummvm/master cf845c6 Paul Gilbert: MADS: Another car opening animation fix
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[23:43] <eriktorbjorn> droid2727: Now you make me feel bad about the games I've been meaning to play but where the graphics have put me off for the time being. :-)
[23:45] <droid2727> eriktorbjorn: no guilt trip intended :P
[23:47] <eriktorbjorn> droid2727: Synnergist springs to mind. I've heard some good (and some mixed) things about it, but somehow I find the graphics style unattractive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsy2HwiZUtg
[23:48] <eriktorbjorn> I do get the feeling that whoever decided on the music style is a great fan of Twin Peaks, though. :-)
[23:49] <droid2727> heh :P
[23:54] <droid2727> another show I have to watch...
[23:55] <eriktorbjorn> droid2727: It's weird.
[23:55] <eriktorbjorn> But at least it's a lot shorter than Lost. :-)
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[23:59] <GitHub98> [scummvm] dreammaster pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/pJpm
[23:59] <GitHub98> scummvm/master 177d7ac Paul Gilbert: MADS: Fix car door exiting animations
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[00:00] --- Sat Mar 7 2015