ScummVM IRC Log - 05 Oct 2014

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[05:24] <P2E> if anyone wants to watch some tracker livestreaming: http://twitch.tv/inversephase
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[05:53] <waltervn> morning
[05:54] <LordHoto> waltervn!
[05:55] <clone2727> waltervn!
[05:59] <fuzzie> ugh.
[05:59] <fuzzie> you americans and your timezones.
[06:00] <LordHoto> fuzzie!
[06:01] <fuzzie> it's 8am on a Sunday, you're not allowed to be so excitable.
[06:01] <LordHoto> it's 11pm on Saturday
[06:04] <fuzzie> muh.
[06:14] <LordHoto> :-D
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[07:54] <DrMcCoy> Dammit clones
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[08:34] <t0by> somaen, fuzzie, do I have a saner way of telling which game I'm running (and which quirks it has) than looking at _gameRef->_targetName?
[08:34] <t0by> Fuzzie suggested adding flags to the AD entries, true, but I don't seem to have those in-engine.
[08:35] <t0by> I *think* I only have that string to work with.
[08:35] <t0by> Or while I'm at it do I add an attribute to BaseGame for this very purpouse?
[08:35] <fuzzie> muh
[08:35] <fuzzie> hello t0by
[08:35] <t0by> Hi dear :)
[08:35] <fuzzie> you should add a flag to the AD entries :p
[08:36] <t0by> <fuzzie> you should add a flag to the AD entries :p <=== I know. But I don't have those in-engine, do I?
[08:36] <fuzzie> you should get them!
[08:36] <t0by> OOH.
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[08:37] <fuzzie> the AD entry is _gameDescription in WintermuteEngine
[08:37] <t0by> But I don't have access to WintermuteEngine from inside an object
[08:37] <t0by> I only have a _gameRef coming from BaseGame
[08:38] <t0by> Er
[08:38] <t0by> not BaseGame
[08:38] <t0by> a sec, let me check
[08:38] <fuzzie> you can cast g_engine
[08:38] <fuzzie> I think you have to ask somaen about this though
[08:38] <fuzzie> right now wintermute doesn't subclass ADGameDescription at all, so adding an AD flag would be a bit invasive
[08:39] <fuzzie> since you'd have to make a WintermuteGameDescription and then change allllll the AD entries
[08:40] <t0by> ECLIPSE Y U NO STOP CRASHIN
[08:42] <t0by> Okay, thing is - I am inside a something that in the end is a BaseClass; BaseClass has _gameRef, but _gameRef doesn't seem to give me a pointer to the engine anyway
[08:42] <fuzzie> yes, I'm just saying that you should maybe think about whether somaen wants an AD flag anyway
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[08:42] <fuzzie> before worrying about how to stuff it into the _gameRef
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[08:43] <fuzzie> because I don't want to make somaen annoyed that I suggested you mess up wintermute :P
[08:43] <t0by> Hey, annoying somaen is *my* pasttime.
[08:44] <t0by> Don't think you can sneak up and become his main annoyance like that.
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[08:44] <fuzzie> somaen just does ((WintermuteEngine *)g_engine) in the few places where an engine ptr is needed
[08:45] <fuzzie> but if adding a version id or workaround flags to the AD is acceptable, copying those into the gameref at startup also seems ok
[08:46] <t0by> That was my thinking as well
[08:46] <t0by> That is - copying intop the gameref
[08:47] <t0by> Well, I'm trying doing that. Worst thing that can happen, somaen will spew his breakfast on his keyboard, curse horribly in Norwegian and declare the approach fucked up.
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[08:59] <t0by> fuzzie, would it make more sense to get the desired interpreter version to be emulated or the actual feature needed in that? I'm partial towards the actual features (e.g. we might want a certain "feature" that is necessary to complete a game, but not necessarily all other bugs from that release)
[09:00] <t0by> That is - adding something like _needsLegacyAudio or something like that to Game
[09:01] <t0by> which comes from the AD flag
[09:01] <fuzzie> I would personally just add a workaround flag
[09:01] <fuzzie> since there don't seem to be significant differences
[09:02] <t0by> Aka _needsLegacyAudio?
[09:02] <t0by> (With a better name, probably)
[09:03] <t0by> (_dontTtriggerKillAllSoundsBEcauseIts5MAAndRelieasOnABug, for example)
[09:03] <fuzzie> well, or just e.g. _workaroundFlags and kWorkaroundNoKillSounds
[09:04] <t0by> Oh, you mean flags as in flags
[09:04] <DrMcCoy> t0by: https://github.com/scummvm/scummvm/blob/master/engines/gob/detection/detection.cpp#L201
[09:05] <t0by> Oh. EngineFeature.
[09:05] <t0by> Thanks.
[09:05] <fuzzie> I like the elegance of the mohawk one better
[09:06] <fuzzie> where we have individual accessors :p
[09:06] <fuzzie> but since t0by is just going to copy elsewhere anyway it doesn't mattter
[09:06] <DrMcCoy> Okay, I can't speak of that :P
[09:06] <fuzzie> do you have any examples of Horrible Things From RE, DrMcCoy?
[09:07] <DrMcCoy> fuzzie: All of gob :P
[09:07] <DrMcCoy> Needlessly self-modifying unzip code to save one branch
[09:07] <fuzzie> in the sense of things which would fit on one presentation slide per horrible thing.. :p
[09:08] <t0by> <DrMcCoy> Needlessly self-modifying unzip code to save one branch ===>> O_o
[09:08] <t0by> wat
[09:08] <fuzzie> we have an unused RE lecture slot on thursday and I was pondering proposing a presentation on Why Everything Is Terrible
[09:10] <DrMcCoy> t0by: Gob has like 4 different functions, each a slightly different LZ variants. Two of them self-modify for another slight variance. Instead of just branching; it's not like the rest of the code is branch free
[09:11] <t0by> wunderbar.
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[09:12] <DrMcCoy> fuzzie: Or how about the horror of the Nintendo DS video codec, Actimagine. Hundred of functions, each with a switch table, but the jump destinations for the cases go outside of the function. Often even so that several cases of different functions jump to the same code piece
[09:12] <fuzzie> and I'm sure there won't be any i-cache penalty at all for that :-p
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[09:13] <DrMcCoy> IDA really doesn't like it when a code chunk belongs to several functions
[09:13] <fuzzie> but I guess this was probably pre-ppro code
[09:13] <fuzzie> yes
[09:13] <fuzzie> see also: bytes belonging to different instructions
[09:14] <DrMcCoy> Doesn't help that IDA doesn't even automatically detect the switch, so I have to manually tell IDA that as well
[09:14] <fuzzie> IDA is flawed in a lot of ways :/
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[09:15] <DrMcCoy> Getting that piece of code to begin with wasn't easy either. The code is compressed in the binary and unpacked into the NDS RAM. So I needed to dump that from an emulator
[09:15] <fuzzie> trying to explain to students why IDA does $crazy_things makes me realise how annoying it is :p
[09:15] <DrMcCoy> lol
[09:16] <DrMcCoy> Also, is it just me, or is IDA not very helpful most of the time with C++ class vtables either?
[09:16] <fuzzie> um
[09:16] <fuzzie> define 'helpful'
[09:16] <DrMcCoy> I.e. I have to manually tell IDA "yes, this is an array of function pointers"
[09:17] <fuzzie> it doesn't like gaps between pointers
[09:17] <fuzzie> so e.g. VC++'s vtables usually work fine
[09:18] <fuzzie> but it's a lot more annoying for archs which have weird indirections in vtables for example
[09:18] <fuzzie> it is worth learning a bit of idapython to automate that kind of thing
[09:18] <fuzzie> (<students> but agh the idapython API is all undocumented and inconsistent and terrible)
[09:18] <DrMcCoy> :D
[09:19] <fuzzie> I am currently wondering if medusa (https://github.com/wisk/medusa) will eventually be awesome
[09:20] <DrMcCoy> There really isn't a lot that can rival IDA at the moment
[09:20] <fuzzie> they've gotten a lot further than my own similar toy project
[09:21] <DrMcCoy> That reminds me. I wish the IDA graphs were more flexible
[09:21] <fuzzie> in what sense?
[09:21] <DrMcCoy> Let me split nodes, for example
[09:21] <fuzzie> ah
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[09:21] <fuzzie> you can also script that to some extent I think
[09:22] <DrMcCoy> Or group nodes without losing the disasm inside
[09:22] <t0by> DrMcCoy, pardon me for being naive, but - why did you have to get your hands dirty with that video codec? Does scummvm even support any DS-native game?
[09:22] <DrMcCoy> t0by: No, not for ScummVM, but for xoreos
[09:23] <t0by> Wait, don't tell me that you had to do that /for/ the DS port.
[09:23] <t0by> Oh.
[09:23] <DrMcCoy> Sonic: The Dark Brotherhood
[09:25] <DrMcCoy> fuzzie: Well, the thing is, in generally having the nodes split only at jumps doesn't make sense if you want to rearrange them to be more like traditional flowchart
[09:26] <DrMcCoy> And grouping them is nice, but all you get is static text instead of interactive disasm
[09:27] <t0by> Er
[09:28] <t0by> fuzzie, why should I need WintermuteGameDescription in the first place? uint32 flags; /* A bitmask of extra flags. The top 16 bits are reserved for generic flags * defined in the ADGameFlags. This leaves 16 bits to be used by client * code.
[09:28] <t0by> "for use by client code" sounds exactly like my use case
[09:28] <t0by> or I'm just being stupid?
[09:28] <fuzzie> sure
[09:29] <fuzzie> you can use those
[09:29] <t0by> Thanks
[09:30] <fuzzie> I tend to overengineer :)
[09:31] <DrMcCoy> fuzzie: Another RE horror story: VMD playback in Woodruff. Oodles of code to implement caching and let videos be played from CD, HDD, inside archives, etc., all with a classes-like interface with functions pointers
[09:32] <t0by> DrMcCoy, I just found out about xoreos
[09:32] <t0by> niiice.
[09:32] <fuzzie> DrMcCoy: we are all still in awe that you worked that out :-p
[09:32] <DrMcCoy> fuzzie: The key to getting it to REing VMD without going insane was to just ignore and rip out all that nonsense
[09:33] <DrMcCoy> Just concentrate on the important VMD decoding
[09:33] <fuzzie> at the moment I am actually sitting here implementing a dynamic analysis tool for an assignment
[09:33] <fuzzie> which is really nice to have in IDA
[09:33] <DrMcCoy> And VMD is already really insane itself
[09:33] <fuzzie> where you just run your binary in dosbox or whatever and then you add xrefs to IDA for the calls which were actually made
[09:34] <DrMcCoy> Neat :)
[09:34] <fuzzie> so I feel like I should really try applying this for scummvm stuff at some point
[09:34] <DrMcCoy> I never even got the DOSBox debugger plugin to work in IDA
[09:35] <fuzzie> well, conveniently wjp is right here to bug about that
[09:35] <DrMcCoy> The remote gdb with winedbg works most of the time, though
[09:35] <fuzzie> yes, so, if you have a win32 app then it's even simpler
[09:35] <fuzzie> well, if it runs on modern OSes
[09:35] <DrMcCoy> Yeah
[09:36] <fuzzie> since you can just instrument it using something like PIN
[09:36] <fuzzie> (which is what I am using for uni)
[09:36] <DrMcCoy> PIN?
[09:36] <fuzzie> intel's (proprietary but free) instrumentation framework
[09:37] <fuzzie> basically it feeds you sets of basic blocks and you can tell it "run this code before/after these instructions"
[09:37] <DrMcCoy> Oh, nice
[09:37] <fuzzie> and so it's a matter of a few minutes to dump call targets (or there are already tools which do it)
[09:37] <DrMcCoy> So similar to valgrind in effect?
[09:37] <fuzzie> well, it doesn't emulate the code when it runs it
[09:38] <t0by> I'm printing out this log and hanging it for when I feel depeserate debugging something.
[09:38] <fuzzie> so it's a lot faster (as long as you're smart with your instrumentation code, e.g. making it inlineable if possible)
[09:38] <DrMcCoy> :)
[09:38] <t0by> I'll look at it and ask myself - would DrMcCoy despair?
[09:38] <t0by> (Answer: probably yes but he'd carry on)
[09:39] <DrMcCoy> t0by: What you don't see is all the private stuff I never made public because I despaired and abandoned it :P
[09:40] <DrMcCoy> And then there's all the public things I never finished
[09:40] <DrMcCoy> The rate finished : unfinished is really quite abysmal
[09:40] <fuzzie> yes, well, that's unfortunately the way things work

[09:41] <fuzzie> I poured a lot of work into STFU before sighing and deciding it's too much work
[09:41] <fuzzie> and of course, AGS
[09:41] <DrMcCoy> :)
[09:41] <fuzzie> projects like composer where I had games being completeable within a week are far less depressing
[09:43] <fuzzie> there should be more things like that!
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[09:58] <t0by> Hi Wishmaster
[09:59] <Wishmaster> t0by: Hi
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[10:08] <GitHub29> [scummvm] tobiatesan opened pull request #518: WINTERMUTE: Adds workaround flags and uses a workaround flag to fix #6647 (master...fix_cat) http://git.io/1TgNww
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[11:13] <WooShell> good meowning =^.^=
[11:33] <pho_> helleow =O.O=
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[12:55] <somaen> t0by: There is already a single workaround for one game in WME
[12:56] <somaen> See base_game.cpp:3907
[12:56] <t0by> somaen, so we add another single workaround or we turn that one into a flag as well? I'd be partial to the second option
[12:57] <somaen> Where I work around the fact that James Peris does its language selection differently from most other games
[12:57] <somaen> Basically it does the selection based on a registry setting, where the other games either just install one language, or move files around on launch for that purpose
[13:01] <somaen> On the one hand, I'd suggest a way that allows for attaching workarounds to entire games.
[13:01] <t0by> And on the other?
[13:01] <somaen> On the other hand, I can see there possibly being multiple versions of games, where some need them, and some don't
[13:01] <somaen> t0by's patience is half a second shorter than my type speed it seems :P
[13:01] <t0by> :-|
[13:02] <somaen> Do you have to put it in BaseGame/AdGame though?
[13:02] <somaen> Those are humongous already
[13:02] <t0by> I fear so, since the engine constructs a "new AdGame (blah)"
[13:02] <somaen> I created the singleton BaseEngine a while back to reduce the need for it.
[13:03] <t0by> Well, I could not pass it in the constructor.
[13:03] <t0by> A second
[13:03] <somaen> Once again, refer to base_game.cpp:3907
[13:03] <t0by> AdGame has no extra attributes
[13:03] <t0by> just the parameter in the constructor
[13:04] <somaen> Some detection-details already go into BaseEngine
[13:04] <t0by> I think it's cleaner that way (mainly: havint it const and using an initialization list) but I can see how you might differ
[13:04] <t0by> the attribute itself /is/ in BaseGame
[13:04] <somaen> target, gameid and language are stored in BaseEngine
[13:05] <t0by> Yes, but is there a way to access that from a BaseObject?
[13:05] <somaen> I know the question of what is a BaseEngine-job and what is a BaseGame-job isn't quite clear.
[13:05] <somaen> t0by: It's a singleton
[13:05] <t0by> I think I only have a _gameRef in thaere.
[13:05] <somaen> it's accessible wherever you want it.
[13:05] <t0by> *there
[13:05] <t0by> OH.
[13:05] <somaen> Do have a look at base_game.cpp:3907
[13:05] <t0by> Yes, a second
[13:05] <somaen> for the 3rd time
[13:06] <t0by> I'm currently doing something else
[13:06] <t0by> in 5 minutes I'll be there
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[13:09] <somaen> Actually, having base_engine.h include wintermute_game_flags.h would make them accessible without the specific include too
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[13:21] <t0by> Here I am
[13:23] <t0by> Uhm, so if I am not mistaken you are suggesting to leave BaseGame and AdGame as they are and putting hasWorkaround() inside BaseEngine?
[13:24] <t0by> correct?
[13:24] <t0by> *er
[13:24] <t0by> *and* using that for James Peris as well
[13:25] <t0by> somaen, that is
[13:28] <somaen> Well, that _IS_ what is used for James Peris
[13:28] <somaen> Or, that is used to get the information that the game IS James Peris
[13:29] <somaen> And the current James Peris workaround is dependant on more than just "yes, we need a workaround", it also needs the language-field.
[13:29] <somaen> So, IMHO _that_ is fine as it is.
[13:30] <t0by> So I leave that bit untouched.
[13:31] <somaen> unless you have an idea for improvement
[13:33] <t0by> Well, I can't think of anything much different than changing that to "if (BaseEngine::getInstance().needsWorkAround(WINTERMUTE_FUNKY_LANGUAGE_WORKAROUND) && key == "Language")" so, no.
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[13:41] <t0by> somaen, do you have a second, please?
[13:41] <t0by> https://tobiatesan@github.com/tobiatesan/scummvm <=== look at branch engine_cat
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[13:42] <t0by> I seem to have broken detection.cpp, but I'm not sure how
[13:44] <wjp> include inside namespace?
[13:44] <t0by> Uhm, where?
[13:44] <wjp> detection_tables.h
[13:44] <t0by> D'OGH
[13:44] <t0by> Thanks
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[14:11] <t0by> somaen, thanks for the tips (and for making me discover something very neat about singletons). See if it sucks less now
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[14:31] <somaen> t0by: How did you end up with tobiatesan@ inside that url?
[14:31] <t0by> Whops, sorry, copypasted from git remote
[14:31] <t0by> But solved anyway
[14:32] <t0by> Don't bother with it
[14:32] <t0by> in fact I noticed you had already mentioned it in the pull comments
[14:32] <somaen> I think I mentioned that you included INSIDE the namespace there
[14:32] <t0by> Yup.
[14:34] <t0by> Thanks
[14:38] <somaen> Regarding your unit PR, is there no source-level way of querying the version number?
[14:39] <somaen> To avoid the configure changes, and the very specific config.h flag
[14:43] <t0by> That was my first thought as well
[14:43] <t0by> I looked for some GLIB_VERSION defined somewhere or something
[14:43] <t0by> so that you would only have had to do #if GLIB_VERSION > something g_object_init() #endif
[14:44] <t0by> I couldn't find anything like that
[14:44] <t0by> also dropped by on #glib
[14:44] <t0by> but nobody pointed at anything like that./
[14:44] <t0by> I actually find it a tad strange there's nothing like that
[14:44] <t0by> But so it seems.
[14:45] <t0by> I think I-Couldn't-Find-It : There's-No-Such_Thing is at least 50:50
[14:46] <t0by> But don't take my word for it, well.
[14:46] <t0by> BAM.
[14:46] <t0by> Found it.
[14:47] <t0by> There is no GLIB_VERSION as such
[14:47] <t0by> but there is a GLIB_CHECK_VERSION() macro
[14:47] <t0by> let me fix that accordingly
[14:53] <t0by> I hate myself when I do this.
[14:53] <t0by> I spend hours around something
[14:53] <t0by> when all it takes is googling with the right keywords
[14:53] <t0by> (In this case: glib compile time version information)
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[14:55] <GitHub26> [scummvm] tobiatesan closed pull request #517: CONFIGURE/UNITY: Check for Glib version and suppress warnings in unity-taskbar.cpp (master...fix_glib) http://git.io/5R9zPA
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[15:00] <somaen> Well
[15:01] <somaen> Learning to google something, really boils down to being able to define what your problem is

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[15:07] <GitHub82> [scummvm] tobiatesan opened pull request #519: UNITY: Call g_type_init only with GLib < 2.36 (master...sensible_unity) http://git.io/1_-aOQ
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[15:19] <GitHub198> [scummvm] somaen opened pull request #520: DOCS: Add a CONTRIBUTING.md (master...contrib) http://git.io/stZRnw
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[15:19] <somaen> t0by: You don't actually have to close and open a new PR
[15:19] <somaen> you can just overwrite the original branch
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[15:26] <fuzzie> somaen: the line wrapping on that is a bit inconsistent..
[15:26] <somaen> Yeah, it's a draft
[15:26] <somaen> And, i mainly focused on content, and might have pressed the PR button a bit early
[15:26] <fuzzie> ok, just thought I'd say
[15:27] <somaen> Yeah, wasn't supposed to come of as a negative reply
[15:27] <somaen> I _DID_ ask for comments
[15:27] <fuzzie> seems like a good idea
[15:27] <fuzzie> I think 'No exceptions' and 'No STL' would perhaps be better items
[15:28] <fuzzie> but I'll leave further commentary for now anyway
[15:29] <fuzzie> I seem to have caught the lurgy with a vengeance today
[15:31] <criezy> somaen: for info 'anyone' is singular (as is 'everyone') -> 'Anyone is welcome'
[15:31] <criezy> But yes this seems a good idea.
[15:32] <somaen> Hmm, must have thought "you" in my head when I wrote that.
[15:32] <somaen> But, ok.
[15:34] <somaen> fuzzie: The line wrapping is a matter of what is a paragraph or not at this point.
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[15:40] <t0by> Bye folks, I'm going away
[15:40] <t0by> See you sometime tomorrow
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[19:49] <waltervn> evening
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[20:58] <Strangerke> Rah :)
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[20:58] <GitHub108> [scummvm] Strangerke pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/kg98LQ
[20:58] <GitHub108> scummvm/master 179eee8 Strangerke: TSAGE: R2R - Fix a bug while dealing card #2 during the game
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[20:58] <DrMcCoy> Strangerke: You beat the damn card game? :P
[20:59] <Strangerke> Not yet. A stupid crashed after 20 minutes blocked me... I was 2 or 3 moves away from winning
[20:59] <DrMcCoy> :P
[21:04] <Strangerke> It's really a pain to debug something that happens randomly after 20 minutes
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[21:31] <Strangerke> DrMcCoy: I just won a game :P
[21:32] <dreammaster> Congrats \o/
[21:32] <DrMcCoy> yay
[21:32] <fuzzie> better try a few more times, to be sure
[21:34] <Strangerke> I know it's not fully fixed
[21:35] <Strangerke> but this time I played 27 minutes without encountering the bug I was looking for
[21:35] <Strangerke> it's annoyingly long
[21:55] Action: fuzzie sneezes some more
[22:06] <DrMcCoy> fuzzie: gesundheit
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[23:02] <GitHub124> [scummvm] Strangerke pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/FTS_og
[23:02] <GitHub124> scummvm/master 6316e91 Strangerke: TSAGE: R2R - Fix position of stock pile after the first shuffle
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[00:00] --- Mon Oct 6 2014