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[18:00] Lubomyr (~Miranda@93.178.244.176) left irc: Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org [18:03] Javacat_ (~Javacat@unaffiliated/javacat) joined #scummvm. [18:06] Javacat (~Javacat@unaffiliated/javacat) left irc: Ping timeout: 276 seconds [18:06] Nick change: Javacat_ -> Javacat [18:09] edheldil_ (~edheldil@ip-78-45-160-121.net.upcbroadband.cz) joined #scummvm. [18:23] criezy (~criezy@host31-51-5-178.range31-51.btcentralplus.com) joined #scummvm. [18:23] #scummvm: mode change '+o criezy' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. [18:26] edheldil_ (~edheldil@ip-78-45-160-121.net.upcbroadband.cz) left irc: Ping timeout: 250 seconds [18:26] RUBICN64 (~Android@2601:7:9480:445:9097:d7b4:3318:137f) joined #scummvm. [18:26] RUBICN64 (~Android@2601:7:9480:445:9097:d7b4:3318:137f) left irc: Client Quit [18:32] edheldil_ (~edheldil@ip-78-45-160-121.net.upcbroadband.cz) joined #scummvm. [18:37] nutron (~nutron@unaffiliated/nutron) left irc: Ping timeout: 246 seconds [18:42] Ramal (~dennis@2.67.95.112.mobile.tre.se) left irc: Ping timeout: 264 seconds [18:43] DoutorHou (~DoutorHou@bl8-133-87.dsl.telepac.pt) joined #scummvm. [18:43] hello everyone [18:43] Ramal (~dennis@2.67.141.244.mobile.tre.se) joined #scummvm. [18:45] does anybody know to whom i can send a game version? [18:49] a game version? [18:49] you mean an unknown version of a game? [18:49] yes, i'm kinda new to scummvm [18:50] i heard you have to submit the md5s etc [18:50] but i made images of my original diskettes [18:50] i just wanna send them to some op or dev [18:50] so maybe scummvm can support that game version [18:50] which game is it? [18:51] it's dott on 8 5.25" floppies, version 1.6 [18:51] "regular" version is on 6 3.5" floppies, version 1.5 [18:51] and you get a message in ScummVM about it being an unknown version? [18:52] is it a translated version? and if so, which language? is it an official release? [18:52] it asks me to choose between floppy or cd dott, i think [18:52] it's english [18:52] patched version [18:52] and official release, yes [18:53] yeah, i checked... when i load it on scummvm, it asks me to choose between dott and dott floppy [18:53] so you get a message in the console that shows the md5s? [18:53] but then it runs normally, i think [18:53] or does it just ask about floppy or CD? [18:53] just asked that [18:53] does that mean it's already supported? [18:54] well, i guess then just select the correct one [18:54] yes [18:54] oh ok then [18:54] if it is the talkie version, select CD [18:54] if it isn't select floppy [18:54] wait, you said floppy, so simply select floppy [18:54] it's the floppy version [18:54] it should work [18:54] yeah :) [18:54] so no need to submit my files anywhere? [18:55] nah [18:55] we wouldn't want the files in any case [18:55] if it would have been an actual unknown version, then the console window would have showed the MD5s of several files [18:55] and in that case you could submit those to the bug tracker [18:55] well, they're the installation files, i thought they could be useful [18:55] ok then [18:55] sending us files would effectively be piracy, so we don't want that of course [18:56] right right [18:56] forget everything i said, then [18:56] i'll just choose floppy on scummvm next time [18:56] thanks for all your help [18:56] yes, have fun with the game [18:56] no problem [18:56] you're welcome [18:58] we only want to get the md5 sums [18:58] if it let's you select between floppy and CD it probably shows them [18:59] hmm... nothing appeared, i think [18:59] game plays fine, it seems [18:59] what platform are you on? [19:00] i didn't notice any message about md5s [19:00] let me check again, i use windows 7 sp1 [19:00] edheldil_ (~edheldil@ip-78-45-160-121.net.upcbroadband.cz) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds [19:00] did you check the terminal window? [19:01] oh, you're right! [19:01] i just did [19:01] a message appeared about being an unknow version [19:02] it says scumm game id "tentacle" file "tentacle.000" md5 [19:03] and then it has the actual md5 number, i think [19:03] edheldil_ (~edheldil@ip-78-45-160-121.net.upcbroadband.cz) joined #scummvm. [19:03] yes, you'll just need to submit the whole output there as bug report [19:04] And of course a description of the version you got, i.e. what language, platform, etc. [19:04] that's why i wanted to send the whole thing to some dev, i'm not very good at doing those things [19:05] i mean, i have no idea how to submit all that info [19:05] http://scummvm.sourceforge.net/faq/#question.report-bugs [19:06] t0by (~t0by@93.37.215.105) joined #scummvm. [19:06] #scummvm: mode change '+v t0by' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. [19:07] ah, i'll take a look at that [19:07] thanks [19:08] it seems i have two other game versions that are unknown on scummvm [19:08] version 1.4 of indy3ega [19:09] just open a bug report for each version [19:09] you sure it's not better if someone else does it? [19:10] nope [19:10] except you want to send someone your actual game media [19:10] edheldil_ (~edheldil@ip-78-45-160-121.net.upcbroadband.cz) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds [19:11] i'd be ok with that [19:11] i don't really have much time to submit all those infos right now [19:11] But then you wouldn't be allowed to play the games anymore [19:11] It shouldn't take much time [19:11] at most 5 minutes [19:12] why wouldn't i be allowed to play the games anymore? [19:12] because you probably don't own them then anymore, except someone returns them to you [19:13] i was thinking about sending the installation files, not my 1993 diskettes [19:13] lol [19:13] but yeah [19:13] yeah, that's illegal [19:13] jesus [19:13] lol [19:14] but even that takes longer than to submit a bug [19:14] ok, i better start [19:15] all i wanted was for the scummvm team to know these versions existed and maybe they could make scummvm support them [19:16] i thought sending someone the installation files would be better, so they could see the files weren't tampered with or cracked [19:16] that's why you should submit a bug report containing the output of ScummVM about the unknown version detected [19:16] i'll try to do it then [19:16] thanks for your help [19:17] it's pretty easy, windows terminal also allows you to copy and paste [19:17] you have to right click for it though IIRC [19:18] edheldil_ (~edheldil@ip-78-45-160-121.net.upcbroadband.cz) joined #scummvm. [19:18] hmm... i never used windows terminal [19:20] do i need to have an account at sourceforge? [19:21] Yes. [19:27] ok, created an account, now i need to create a ticket for each bug, right? [19:28] yes [19:33] Cheeseness (~cheesenes@ppp14-2-174-212.lns20.hba2.internode.on.net) joined #scummvm. [19:39] _marc` (~marc@p200300460335B6FEB1E21DFF55EFB6CA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) left irc: Ping timeout: 256 seconds [19:53] _marc` (~marc@p200300460335B6FE284834929317C6B7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #scummvm. [20:16] ny00123 (~ny00123@bzq-79-180-12-127.red.bezeqint.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds [20:19] jamm (~jam@113.193.129.116) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds [20:24] jamm (~jam@113.193.129.116) joined #scummvm. [20:25] Wishmaster (Wishmaster@ipservice-092-209-049-236.092.209.pools.vodafone-ip.de) joined #scummvm. [20:29] ny00123 (~ny00123@bzq-79-182-113-27.red.bezeqint.net) joined #scummvm. [20:35] Wishmaster (Wishmaster@ipservice-092-209-049-236.092.209.pools.vodafone-ip.de) left irc: Quit: „Wahrlich, keiner ist weise, der nicht das Dunkel kennt.“ (Hermann Hesse) [20:36] Wishmaster (Wishmaster@ipservice-092-209-049-236.092.209.pools.vodafone-ip.de) joined #scummvm. [20:36] RUBICN64 (~Android@2601:7:9480:445:9097:d7b4:3318:137f) joined #scummvm. [20:37] Wishmaster (Wishmaster@ipservice-092-209-049-236.092.209.pools.vodafone-ip.de) left irc: Client Quit [20:46] Wishmaster (Wishmaster@ipservice-092-209-049-236.092.209.pools.vodafone-ip.de) joined #scummvm. [20:49] ny00123 (~ny00123@bzq-79-182-113-27.red.bezeqint.net) left irc: Quit: Leaving [20:51] _sev (~sev@93.158.13.68) joined #scummvm. [20:51] _sev (~sev@93.158.13.68) left irc: Changing host [20:51] _sev (~sev@scummvm/undead/sev) joined #scummvm. [20:51] #scummvm: mode change '+o _sev' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. [20:53] Sir_Burp_ (~Shloosh@unaffiliated/shloosh) joined #scummvm. [20:53] Sir_Burpalot (~Shloosh@unaffiliated/shloosh) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds [21:04] Sir_Burp_ (~Shloosh@unaffiliated/shloosh) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds [21:06] criezy (~criezy@host31-51-5-178.range31-51.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Quit: criezy [21:07] sact (~forexampl@82.128.187.207) left irc: Quit: Leaving. [21:09] Wishmaster (Wishmaster@ipservice-092-209-049-236.092.209.pools.vodafone-ip.de) left irc: Quit: „Wahrlich, keiner ist weise, der nicht das Dunkel kennt.“ (Hermann Hesse) [21:14] http://www.mobygames.com/game/wirus Polish game Zwirus from 1996, Game Engine: SCUMM? [21:15] Unlikely... [21:31] RUBICN64 (~Android@2601:7:9480:445:9097:d7b4:3318:137f) left irc: Quit: AndroidIrc Disconnecting [21:36] frankyboy_ (~franky@ppp109-252-17-4.pppoe.spdop.ru) left irc: Remote host closed the connection [21:39] _marc` (~marc@p200300460335B6FE284834929317C6B7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) left irc: Ping timeout: 272 seconds [21:39] jammm (~jam@113.193.129.116) joined #scummvm. [21:43] jamm (~jam@113.193.129.116) left irc: Ping timeout: 272 seconds [21:43] bgK (~bbouclet@vai69-5-88-183-207-181.fbx.proxad.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds [21:48] Grim Fandango Remastered Launch trailer (ipad) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lltfz207Vnk [21:51] _marc` (~marc@p200300460335B6FE28B7CF84758A3778.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #scummvm. [21:59] Kirben (Kirben@c110-22-51-140.brasd4.vic.optusnet.com.au) joined #scummvm. [21:59] #scummvm: mode change '+o Kirben' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. [22:01] droid2727 (~droid2727@135.sub-70-208-84.myvzw.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 244 seconds [22:06] droid2727 (~droid2727@75.sub-70-208-77.myvzw.com) joined #scummvm. [22:06] #scummvm: mode change '+o droid2727' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. [22:08] ok i hope there's at least one dev in here that's not droid2727 [22:08] so, for pegasus I'm integrating steamworks so the steam release can have achievements and such [22:09] steamworks is not gpl compatible [22:09] so, i wrote this thing https://bitbucket.org/blitter/xmessageproxy/src [22:09] which is a separate app that receives command/id/value packets that can be anything [22:09] interpreted by a handler on its side [22:10] the April fools have a shocking tendency of being taken serious [22:10] i added some code to scummvm that sends these packets via IPC to this proxy app [22:10] it works [22:10] and achievements are hooked up via steam, being granted, and stuff like that [22:10] _sev (~sev@scummvm/undead/sev) left irc: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep [22:10] the only code shared between the proxy app and scummvm is a header file, and that code is licensed under modified bsd [22:11] now before i go ahead and implement the rest of these achievements, i'm looking for basically an OK from you guys, the scummvm team :) [22:11] (You should all say "Cast out ye achievements!") [22:12] like i said, somebody other than droid2727 ;) [22:12] Cast out ye achievements! [22:13] Unfortunately, blitter wants a legal viewpoint rather than an opinion on achievements [22:13] if it's not OK, then i'm open to suggestion as to what i can do to make it OK :) [22:14] I am pretty sure you have to ask a lawyer about whether it's legal or not [22:14] it's not up to the team who goes after whom legally? [22:14] I am pretty sure you would have to ask all contributors in that case, or all relevant ones [22:15] it's legal according to the letter of the gpl, but i wanna do right by you folks [22:17] I am pretty sure nobody cares too much about you being crazy and using IPC as long as this product mentions that it uses ScummVM [22:17] yup it sure does [22:17] Pegasus Prime is shipped and says ScummVM all over its credits :) [22:18] i won't put scummvm's name on my proxy app (unless you want me to, i don't really care) [22:18] blitter: you are publishing a game on Steam which use ScummVM? [22:18] yeah, don't do that :-P [22:18] LePhilousophe: yes precisely [22:18] oh ok [22:18] and we want to integrate steamworks to add value [22:18] but steamworks isn't gpl compatible [22:18] hence my workaround :) [22:18] I think that GPL let you communicate with the proxy [22:19] but yeah, better asking to a lawyer [22:19] yep that's what i meant by it's legal by the letter of the gpl [22:19] i'm not adding anything to scummvm that makes it require my app [22:20] if my app is missing, it functions normally [22:20] just no steamworks functionality :) [22:20] doesn't sound like it requires it then [22:20] oh there's a "not" in that sentence [22:20] just disregard what I just said [22:20] :-P [22:21] :P [22:22] anyway, some ScummVM developers strictly prefer that you mention ScummVM when you use it (modified or not), so if you do that, it should be fine [22:23] LordHoto: It's plastered in plenty of locations, and comes with source+patch [22:23] Yes OK. Yeah nothing is being changed about attribution to the scummvm team [22:23] also what droid2727 said [22:23] yeah, got that [22:23] was just saying [22:24] my app is mostly open sourced too. the parts that i can't open are staying under wraps (the steam stuff) but i figured i should put what i can out there [22:24] just to be a good citizen :) [22:25] If you want to be a good citizen, you should pay taxes to us. [22:25] i can certainly forward that request up the chain ;) [22:25] hum [22:25] https://www.fsf.org/licensing/compliancelab.html [22:26] search for IPC in the page [22:28] it's really not simple in fact :) [22:29] but he's not providing GPLed functionality? [22:29] devonmeunier_ (~devonmeun@107.170.171.103) joined #scummvm. [22:29] evil-t0by (~t0by@93.37.215.105) joined #scummvm. [22:29] #scummvm: mode change '+v evil-t0by' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. [22:30] devonmeunier (~devonmeun@107.170.171.103) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds [22:30] t0by (~t0by@93.37.215.105) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds [22:30] right [22:30] LordHoto: it would be GPL with exception [22:30] because of the Steamworks library [22:30] why? [22:31] his proxy application can't be pure GPL because STeamworks license is incompatible with it [22:31] so he would need to release his proxy under GPL with exception for the Steamworks library [22:31] He uses 2 or 3 clause BSD? [22:31] bsd without the advertising clause [22:31] 3 i think [22:32] well, you should know if you use a 2 or 3 clause one ;-) [22:33] 3 [22:33] sorry i'm at work [22:34] you just sent simple status updates for achievements from ScummVM, right? [22:34] DoutorHou (~DoutorHou@bl8-133-87.dsl.telepac.pt) left irc: [22:34] correct [22:35] I am pretty sure that's no "rich, non-standard IPC" [22:35] yeah i did that on purpose :) [22:35] somebody could take my code and make a stats logger or something [22:35] LordHoto: yeah I think so too but there is room for interpetation and I don't like that :/ [22:36] his program doesn't satisfy "that gives all the same functionality normally given by static or dynamic linking." [22:36] so, not much room for interpretation [22:36] well that gives the same functionnality as if he was linking steamworks in ScummVM [22:37] you are thinking in the wrong direction [22:37] maybe [22:37] you need to wonder if this IPC stuff he does makes his program a derivative work of ScummVM [22:38] if anything it's a "plugin" [22:38] but it's not even that [22:38] then, his would would fall under GPL and he couldn't use Steamworks [22:38] true [22:41] IANAL, but it sounds to me like that is true to the letter of the GPL [22:41] The spirit...not so sure [22:41] right [22:41] I was in here a few months ago asking about this and that's the answer I got :) [22:41] It's pretty ugly to boot [22:41] yah [22:41] but [22:42] alternatives are scarce [22:42] TCP! [22:42] Frankly, I for one would prefer "no achievements at all" [22:42] write to standard out and just let your proxy read from ScummVM's standard out [22:42] how does TCP vs pipes make it OK? [22:42] :-P [22:42] Or, well, ask Valve to open up the Steamworks crap more [22:43] blitter: You said alternatives ;) [22:43] that is about as likely as getting scummvm relicensed [22:43] jammm (~jam@113.193.129.116) left irc: Quit: Leaving [22:43] evil-t0by (~t0by@93.37.215.105) left irc: Quit: Bye! [22:43] Which is I would have no achievements and give that as the public answer to why there are no achievements [22:43] ajax16384 (~User@ip33.net130.n37.ru) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer [22:43] t0by (~t0by@93.37.215.105) joined #scummvm. [22:43] #scummvm: mode change '+v t0by' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. [22:44] I.e. officially and publically blame Valve, hoping that this would maybe at least make them aware of this [22:44] t0by (~t0by@93.37.215.105) left irc: Client Quit [22:44] But that's me :P [22:45] well, blitter will just do that if you say "fuck that, I hate it" [22:45] :-P [22:45] i have nothing against DrMcCoy [22:45] but i don't think his answer is a good one from a gamer's perspective [22:45] I don't care enough to make that a hill to die on for me here now, though [22:45] and i'm in it to make the game better [22:46] So, for what it's worth, you have my blessing for that ugly solution [22:46] :) [22:46] I still hate it, mind :P [22:46] if it were up to me, (and i have spoken to valve about it) then i'd link steamworks directly [22:47] valve's response is "well, you can try reverse engineering it if you want, but... historically we're not too thrilled with that" [22:48] What's their reasoning for not licensing the Steamworks stuff more permissive? [22:48] i've never asked them that [22:49] but, having worked on a couple of games with online backends, i think i know why [22:49] it would be very easy for someone to screw with their servers, stats, etc. by abusing their API [22:50] i think it's not a matter of "our code is special" but more like they want to keep it curated [22:50] but that's just speculation on my part [22:50] also steamworks includes their DRM code [22:50] so there's that [22:50] which btw, is optional-- i'm not putting drm into scummvm [22:51] Sure, but you could carve it up, and only make some of the stuff open [22:51] Like the achievements [22:51] I don't see how that can screw with the servers [22:51] games spamming the steam servers with requests [22:51] At least not more than can already be done with existing achievement managers [22:51] denial of service kind of shit [22:51] s/stuff [22:51] Okay, but those can be rate limited [22:51] There have been some significant efforts in reverse engineering Steamworks. The whole "it's easy for people to mess up our stuffs if our code is permissively licenced" argument is security through obscurity and not really a particularly rational outlook [22:52] Right, and achievement managers do already exist, and they could already do that [22:52] are there open source achievement managers out there that talk to a centralized backend? [22:53] Dunno, But there are ones around that can automatically set all achievements for all games you own [22:53] i don't think those are valve-approved [22:53] probably done through pirated versions of their sdk [22:54] Well, "pirated" [22:54] Nah, more likely OpenSteamworks [22:54] hmm, maybe [22:54] it also may be because valve are jerks and just don't want to [22:55] Frankly, I would also really prefer a FLOSS'd Steam :P [22:55] I doubt anybody cares enough - Valve seems to be a flighty, whimsical beast that really only moves in directions that have enough internal attention at the time [22:56] lol kinda like apple :P [22:56] Cheeseness: As the recent mod selling thing showed [22:56] should i get reddit behind me? :P [22:56] Don't ge me started on Apple [22:57] I thought the mod thing didn't seem very problematic. It's a pretty clear progression of stuff that Valve has been doing for a long time that everybody seemed to embrace [22:57] Cheeseness: It was just handled so...badly and without proper thought [22:58] I didn't see much evidence of that. All I saw were internet angrymans who had the wrong idea [22:59] well the 25%/45%/30% split was kinda greedy [22:59] Mods frequently build upon another, bundling or pilvering other mods. There's no way to properly account for that [22:59] people even uploaded mods of other people, it was a real mess [22:59] m_kiewitz: The cut that mod developers got was up to the publisher to set, so the specific numbers can't really be a criticism of the model as a whole (I think that the workshop agreement gave publishers too much power though) [22:59] Then, yes, the split was insane, as was the "You need to have that amount sold before you can draw your money out of the system", which most mods would never reach [23:00] and it's disgusting that for example a mod is sold to fix crap, that bethesda should have implemented properly in the first place - and then they get 45% of it [23:00] I still think the way, way better solution would have been a tip jar for the mod creators [23:00] Of course, that wouldn't give Valve and Bethesda an easy hand into the money [23:00] DrMcCoy: There were built in mechanisms for indications of derivative works and distributing funds accordingly. I don't think that that aspect is really an issue since stuff was being policed [23:01] and there also was that 24 hour limit. so if a mod breaks all sorts of stuff, that you figure out a week later, then you won't be able to do anything [23:01] and what about bethesda breaking mods [23:01] They had "pay what you want" options available. That's a tip jar effectively, right? [23:02] I guess you suck it up and accept that that's the risk you take when you pay for a mod (for me, it would be about supporting a content creator, not about getting guaranteed support) [23:02] if it was let's say 75% for the modder and 25% for valve, then it wouldn't be that bad [23:02] it's kinda ironic that zenimax/bethesda, who is historically anti-mod, bought id software, who basically were the first to facilitate mods in games :P [23:02] as a tip jar [23:02] blitter: Bethesda has historically been *very* mod friendly [23:02] maybe i'm just thinking of zmi [23:03] m_kiewitz: For sure. There's definitely room for better models. I don't think that makes the one that was put forward as bad as people were making out though [23:03] yes, i'm not against supporting the modder. i'm against supporting bethesda, especially because mods can actually result in their game getting sold [23:03] they got their money, they should be happy with that. without mods all sorts of games would be sort of unplayable [23:03] zmi definitely put the kibosh on id open sourcing stuff :( [23:03] for example Dark Souls 1 port on PC was a huge mess until someone fixed it [23:04] The last id source drop was done whilst Zenimax held the reins. I think it'll be the last though [23:04] publisher of DS1 shouldn't get any more money on top of that. they should be happy that someone fixed their crap. in fact they should actually pay the modder [23:04] that's because those wheels were already turning before the zmi acqui [23:04] notice there's no rage source drop [23:04] blitter: really? sad :( [23:05] don't know for sure (should ask him) but i suspect that may have factored into jc leaving id [23:05] (it mostly was the vr thing though) [23:05] It'd be too soon for a idTech5 source drop based on the lag time that previous engine source releases had, I think [23:06] maybe [23:06] for idtech4 it took seven years [23:06] 6 years for idTech3, 8 years for idTech4 [23:07] rage came out in 2010 [23:07] who knows. rob duffy runs that ship now. at least technically [23:08] I don't expect that we'll see an idTech5 source drop [23:08] me neither [23:08] Littleboy (~littleboy@c-73-149-98-187.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) left irc: Quit: Ętre dans le vent, une ambition de feuille morte. [23:08] also let's just think about what bethesda would have done in case this went through [23:08] according to jc, zmi was a bit uneasy about letting him release idtech4 [23:09] in the next game they would have totally locked everything up, so that only "semi-official" mods would work. that would make sense for them, i mean it would be free additional money for them [23:09] It's hard to care much about Bethesda though - if they do inappropriate things, don't play their stuff. It's easy. [23:09] They're as accountable as their users make them [23:10] Eh, I've never managed to get into any of TES games anyway [23:10] well, it seems quite a few console gamers are weak. just think about Fallout 3 on PS3. Followed by New Vegas on PS3, which was even worse. And then finally Skyrim on PS3 which was a broken mess. [23:11] i played oblivion and skyrim for a few hours [23:11] they're very pretty games but certain minigames were enough to make me lose interest [23:11] oblivion on PS3 worked really well. i guess because it was ported by someone else [23:11] conversations in oblivion, lockpicking in skyrim [23:11] I tried Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion, none of them held my interest. Running around in the search of a plot [23:11] i just didn't like them [23:11] Skyrim was the only TES game I played for a longer amount of time [23:11] m_kiewitz: Does that matter though? If weak people cave and buy stuff, then they sort of get what they deserve don't they? [23:12] Nick change: Javacat -> NotJavacat [23:12] I spent hundreds of hours in Daggerfall and probably over 2000 in Morrowind. Oblivion was a bit of a letdown and I've never bothered playing Skyrim [23:12] well, but look at the steam mod fiasko. in that case all sorts of people complained, which resulted in valve removing it completely [23:12] I rather put thousands of hours into Neverwinter Nights :) [23:12] that's why i'm actually happy about that. because quite a few people would have accepted that in the end. [23:13] I would have accepted it, but I didn't see showstopper problems with the model they were putting forward (I wouldn't have supported any developers who had the kind of payment distribution that Bethesda had put forward though) [23:13] in case people want to pay for a mod, they were able to do it and they will be able to do that. [23:14] WooShell (woo@ipbcc3081f.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) left irc: Quit: Zu gotdy od mpy nrmy stpimf. Zu drvpmf zrsmd aogy jrt iq pt viy jrt yp yjr htpimf. [23:15] but if you accept it in any way, then sooner or later games will get completely locked down on PC. [23:15] Only games by people I wouldn't want to support anyway [23:16] so you would even stop buying the games of such a publisher? [23:16] Sure, why not? [23:16] I already do that [23:16] NotJavacat (~Javacat@unaffiliated/javacat) left irc: Ping timeout: 246 seconds [23:16] well, if a publisher releases scammy DLC and I don't want to support that, then i will just not buy the DLC. but i may still buy their games. [23:17] maybe i will wait for a "complete" edition, who knows. [23:17] That doesn't sound like it sends the right kind of message [23:17] the publisher won't know the difference between you simply not being interested in their games and not supporting them because of X [23:17] Same goes for your rationale for not purchasing some DLC [23:18] But if you only give money to people who act the way you like, then those sorts of people will continue to get money for making stuff you like in the way you like [23:18] not really. when i wait for a GOTY edition to get released, then I effectively send them the message that I either: a) don't support buying DLC or b) that I'm cheap :P [23:18] Or any other number of messages [23:19] they will in any case, because there are always people who buy it regardless [23:19] that's why DLC still exists. Because some people buy it. [23:19] If you don't buy/play their games, does that matter? [23:19] depends on the game. it may matter to me. [23:20] i mean just take a look at the Xbox one fiasco [23:21] it was sort of similar. big company tried to screw over all sorts of people with their always online DRM, no used games blocking and so on. [23:22] I have a huge dislike for consoles, but if people want to make bad experiences for themselves by supporting that industry, it doesn't hurt me [23:22] i wouldn't have supported that in any case. i wouldn't buy consoles made by Microsoft [23:22] but if they managed to go through, everyone else would follow sooner or later. [23:22] and that's the actual problem. [23:23] Only for those that participate [23:23] i personally would stop gaming completely if everyone did it (and go fully retro). but it would still suck. [23:28] i mean what's next? always online bluray players? and you will probably say: "then stop watching movies". i rather think that companies that try to screw people over should get stopped immediately. [23:28] SylvainTV (~SylvainTV@ALille-653-1-517-180.w90-58.abo.wanadoo.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 272 seconds [23:29] I think companies should be free to do whatever they like, but consumers should be more discerning about who they do and don't support (if there's no market, then the company trying to do quesitonable stuff goes out of business) [23:29] The symptom is that producers don't respect their consumers, the root cause that needs to be tackled is that consumers don't care [23:29] i doubt that steam will go out of business soon :P [23:30] *shrug* [23:30] There are alternatives though [23:30] well, consumers actually cared in the Steam case. and they succeeded [23:30] i wouldn't buy from Steam. I would buy from GOG. In theory. I love my physical copies. [23:30] I don't think so. I think a small vocal minority of super angry and abusive people got noticed, and it makes me sad that Valve caved on that front because it'll probably result in more brazen behaviour for whatever thing people want to be angry about next [23:31] Steam mod created a really huge shitstorm. if it was just a small vocal minority, steam wouldn't have pulled it. [23:31] It really didn't seem that big [23:31] they wouldn't care. lots of people complain abouts lots of things and Steam doesn't care at all. because those are really just a tiny minority. [23:32] I like my physical copies too. I feel like I actually own something, rather than just a number [23:32] Same here. I also like that if I turn off my internet connection someday, most of my physical stuff will still work [23:32] steam wouldn't have cared otherwise. Microsoft would also not have cared otherwise. and in case of Xbox one well we see where their current place is. And I'm glad about that. [23:33] that's my line of thought as well. if for example Sierra games would have had online activation, they wouldn't work anymore. well hacked copies would maybe work, idk. [23:33] You're speculating that Valve wouldn't have cared. Gabe mentioned on Reddit that he'd received thousands of emails. That's the tiniest fraction of Steam's userbase (and Skyrim's too) [23:33] I tend to avoid buying stuff that requires online activation [23:34] well he personally. just look at what was going on on social networks. [23:35] they knew that there would be backslash, but i have to assume that they expected something way smaller than what they got. [23:35] The thing about social networks is that they amplify things within the circles that people are already interacting [23:35] I barely saw any grumpiness [23:36] as i said - why would they totally pull it, if there were just a few people against it. it wouldn't make sense to do so. [23:36] back then microsoft also didn't care at first. and they paid (and are still paying) the price. [23:36] I also didn't see a peep from the 6,500+ member Steam group that I run aside from a 40 minute conversation in our IRC channel when somebody from *outside* the community came in trying to encourage people to be angry about it. They eventually left when people were more interested in chasing down facts than grabbing pitchforks [23:37] well, that's your personal experience [23:37] oh wait, I don't run it anymore. I resigned earlier this year (still getting used to that) [23:38] Right, and how is your personal experience any more valid? It's not like I didn't go researching [23:38] i simply see that valve totally pulled it after a few days. [23:38] I think it was the intensity of the grumpiness rather than the volume that made a difference [23:38] i really have to doubt that they pull stuff simply because a few people complain about something. [23:39] I'm pretty sure I saw death threats being bandied about [23:39] i mean how long did their offline mode not work? lots of people complained and nothing happened for ages. i have no idea if they finally fully fixed it. [23:39] it's internet. there is always death threats. [23:39] People aren't so vehement about that [23:40] Not always. There's been a notable rise in the past year [23:40] well just look at the 360 hardware issues, that went on for years and years. [23:40] so many people were pissed. [23:40] microsoft didn't care. [23:40] although granted, there were too many people, who just bought another one and another one and so on. [23:41] i guess nothing really happened, because there were not enough people complaining. [23:41] Or Microsoft is pretty good at ignoring its users [23:42] and it somewhat even worked out. however it didn't work out for Xbox One. [23:43] because it totally escalated. and although they removed those "features", an insane amount of people still remembers "hey wait a minute, that's the console with always online DRM" [23:43] I don't have awareness of any of this stuff because I have no interest in that platform, but it seems like the Xbox One has been more than successful enough to be worthwhile for Microsoft [23:43] well in Germany they are selling 4:1. 4 PS4s vs. 1 Xbox. [23:43] i don't think that's good news. [23:43] Do they need to be compared? [23:44] huh? [23:44] both are current gen consoles. they compete with each other. [23:44] So? Market dominance isn't commercial success [23:44] it's not? [23:45] No, profit is. [23:45] the more consoles you sell, the more potential game buyers you have [23:45] "it seems like the Xbox One has been more than successful enough to be worthwhile for Microsoft" [23:45] when you have only a tiny fraction of all players, you get less and less software and you fail entirely. [23:45] have you ever looked at microsoft's xbox "profits"? [23:46] I'm vaguely aware that they don't make money on the consoles themselves [23:46] they all made huge losses, but microsoft is able to not care because they got Windows + Office. [23:46] if Microsoft made consoles only, they would be out of business [23:47] that 360 hardware fiasco cost them i think 2 billion or even more than that [23:47] microsoft is able to not care about profits, because they can afford it somewhat. [23:48] Cheeseness1 (~cheesenes@ppp14-2-186-107.lns20.hba2.internode.on.net) joined #scummvm. [23:48] that's microsoft profit/losses in video game business: http://www.neowin.net/images/uploaded/asfd3221125511352.jpg [23:48] starting right from the start in 2003. looks really bad to me. [23:51] microsoft back then invented paid multiplayer. i never supported that. and this generation Sony is forcing customers to also pay for multiplayer. which i also don't support. [23:51] Cheeseness (~cheesenes@ppp14-2-174-212.lns20.hba2.internode.on.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 272 seconds [23:51] ^_^ [23:51] Nick change: Cheeseness1 -> Cheeseness [23:51] that's the result of the "market" [23:52] i mean i'm currently still fine, but at some point everyone will feature paid multiplayer and then i will have to fully give up on it. [23:52] I think the picture is bigger than that. It also doesn't look like a necessarily reliable URL for sourcing information [23:52] it was the first graph that i could find. the numbers are fine. [23:53] microsoft made huge losses each generation. as i said - a video game company acting like microsoft would have went out of business already. [23:54] hopefully you trust forbes http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2014/02/18/microsoft-should-give-xbox-one-to-nintendo/ [23:55] url is crazy talk, but the actual title is "Microsoft Should Consider Getting Out of Gaming" [23:56] It's not about trust, it's about seeing context [23:57] even the way of selling console hardware at a loss is silly [23:57] Sony did it with PS3 back then. I think they paid $200 on top or even more than that at release. [23:58] Nintendo however even sold their Wii consoles for profit. [23:58] It's how the console industry is geared. It's just as silly for Sony, Nintendo and anybody else doing the same sort of thing [23:58] Nintendo only started this generation, their other consoles were always sold for profit (at least if i remember correctly) [23:59] which was smart. [23:59] Sony's problem was their extremely expensive blu ray drive back then. [23:59] if they would have used DVD, they would have been able to sell it for profit too [23:59] i know, trojan horse yada yada, it was still a stupid idea. and they even castrated their european PS3 launch model to save money. [00:00] --- Wed May 6 2015