ScummVM IRC Log - 02 Sep 2014

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[00:19] <solardiz> hi! i'm looking at engines/scumm/script_v2.cpp. is it intentional that o2_add(), etc. (add/sub, direct/indirect) use "int", whereas o2_isGreaterEqual(), etc. (the many compare and branch functions) use "uint16"? i guess so, but ...
[00:20] <solardiz> ... this makes it tricky to check e.g. "balance - price >= 0". is this achieved by comparing against 0x8000? or by comparing "balance >= price" instead?
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[00:20] <solardiz> a quick test suggests that in Zak it's probably comparison against 0x8000. correct guess?
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[00:21] <solardiz> i'd guess the use of uint16 mimics LucasArts' code, but what about the use of int (typically 32-bit signed) - does it just happen to work as well, or does it mimic the original as well?
[00:24] <clone2727> I'm not familiar with the v2 code, but if I had to take a guess, I'd say that the original did all 16-bit math and that our use of int in some functions is irrelevant
[00:24] <clone2727> Why do you ask?
[00:25] <solardiz> clone2727: thanks. for a few reasons, including:
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[00:26] <solardiz> clone2727: i played Zak with my 8 y.o. son the other day, and we ran out of cash. ;-) so i let him type the new balance in a gdb set command, and he chose 9999999
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[00:26] <solardiz> clone2727: we ended up being able to sell stuff, increasing this balance even further, but not spend any money (insufficient funds)
[00:27] <solardiz> clone2727: clearly, this is a negative number if greated as 16-bit signed
[00:27] <solardiz> clone2727: so we "set" the balance to 32000, and it worked great
[00:27] <solardiz> clone2727: then, i started wondering if it was in fact possible to get into this trap in the original game, e.g. by willing to lotto too many times
[00:28] <solardiz> s/willing/winning/
[00:28] <solardiz> clone2727: i found this - http://www.zak-site.com/c64.htm "Lou refuses to let you play the Lotto again after you've won it a bunch of times" - integer overflow protection?
[00:29] <solardiz> clone2727: now i wonder if it's possible to enter a condition where behavior of original vs. scummvm would differ, due to your use of "int" on the add/sub ops
[00:29] <solardiz> clone2727: another reason is that i am into infosec, and it's fun for me to find examples of integer overflows in classic games... especially on "money" things
[00:30] <solardiz> clone2727: yet another reason is that i'll be working on a keynote for an infosec conference, and i am considering the idea to use a game in place of slides ...
[00:30] <clone2727> Likely the original would just overflow and not care. Disassemble the scripts
[00:31] <solardiz> clone2727: ... i don't currently intend to use scummvm, though. got my own quest engine written ~20 years ago (latest build from 1996, but works like a charm in dosbox with new "data" files, without a recompile). ;-)
[00:31] <clone2727> Honestly though, if it's an overflow situation, it's a script bug, and us using int16 vs. int32 is not going to make a difference
[00:31] <LordHoto> What's a quest engine?
[00:32] <solardiz> clone2727: the difference would probably be limited to the displayed balance only, yes
[00:32] <solardiz> clone2727: in scummvm, the balance is actually shown as the value we "set" it to, so $9999999, then even more when we sold stuff to Lou
[00:34] <solardiz> clone2727: i thought the scummvm project had a goal of matching the original behavior closely, except when fixing a bug negatively impacting gameplay. in this case, i think there's no good fix you can make, so you could match the original closer.
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[00:35] <solardiz> LordHoto: hmm? e.g. scummvm would be an example of one, no?
[00:35] <solardiz> LordHoto: wrong terminology? what would you call these?
[00:35] <LordHoto> What?
[00:36] <LordHoto> Ah, right, russian terminology for adventure games?
[00:36] <solardiz> yeah, exactly
[00:36] <LordHoto> anyway, the original probably used only 16 bit integers, so you couldn't set it to 9999999
[00:36] <solardiz> mine was actually called "adventure game language", but that's too generic a name for it. i never distributed it much.
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[00:37] <solardiz> LordHoto: i guess so, but i wonder if it were possible to get balance to >32767, and then behavior (just display?) would possibly differ
[00:38] <LordHoto> Change the variable value in a savegame and try it out?
[00:38] <solardiz> LordHoto: somehow i haven't found the value verbatim in a savegame (i guess it's obfuscated), only in process memory
[00:39] <LordHoto> In a savegame of the original interpreter?
[00:39] <LordHoto> Would highly doubt they obfuscated that...
[00:39] <solardiz> LordHoto: it's been 20+ years since i looked at the originals, but iirc even the original had lightly obfuscated savegames
[00:40] <solardiz> LordHoto: hmm, or not... since i now recall easily moving Zak between rooms via savegame edits back then
[00:41] <solardiz> ok, thanks for comments so far. if i have time to explore this more and find something worthwhile, i'll tell.
[00:41] <solardiz> i guess i am just being more curious than i need to be. who cares. ;-)
[00:42] <LordHoto> I would've highly doubted they obfuscated anything in saves... IIRC it just wrote parts of the interpreter state to the save...
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[00:47] <LordHoto> Anyway, it's probably just because ScummEngine::convertIntMessage works on native int instead of 16 bit integers like the original probably did.
[00:48] <LordHoto> And since we store int32 values in the variables because later games need it, it's slightly different displayed compared to the original if you change the values.
[00:49] <LordHoto> But really, using gdb to set variables?
[00:49] <LordHoto> That sounds completely overcomplicated.
[00:49] <LordHoto> Since you can simply set variable values in our builtin debugger...
[00:50] <LordHoto> But I guess it's always more fun to use a way overcomplicated path. :-)
[00:52] <solardiz> LordHoto: that was with a build of scummvm 1.0.0, which i compiled when that version was new. and it had no symbol info, so we found the address to "set" to the hard way. ;-)
[00:53] <solardiz> LordHoto: i was unaware of builtin debugger. how is it activated? is it always built in? (i guess i need to google for it)
[00:53] <LordHoto> It should be mentioned in the README. Ctrl+D
[00:53] <solardiz> LordHoto: ... and i just tried the original zak.exe's savegame - can't find zak's cashcard balance there
[00:54] <LordHoto> "Ctrl-d - Starts the debugger"
[00:58] <solardiz> cool. works in that 1.0 build. but no way to pring all of scumm_vars[] at once from there, rather than by individual elements?
[00:58] <solardiz> we wouldn't have known the exact variable number, so would need to search by value anyway
[01:01] <LordHoto> think you would have to list all 256 variables by hand, yes
[01:05] <solardiz> LordHoto: looks like there's room for improvement here ;-)
[01:06] <solardiz> LordHoto: and how do i set a variable to a value via that debugger? the builtin help isn't immediately clear on that.
[01:06] <LordHoto> just assign it by = iirc
[01:06] <solardiz> wasn't parsed as i intended it
[01:07] <solardiz> without spaces around "=", the whole thing got parsed as variable name
[01:08] <solardiz> with spaces around "=", it set the variable to 0, instead of the right hand side value
[01:08] <solardiz> (might be a bug that has since been fixed, though. old build here.)
[01:08] <LordHoto> ah, just two parameters
[01:08] <LordHoto> scumm_vars[5] 5
[01:09] <solardiz> worked, thanks!
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[05:37] <waltervn> morning
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[06:46] <Strangerke|work> hi guys
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[07:36] <waltervn> hey Strangerke|work
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[09:30] <lewellyn> so... i discovered that my gf was unfamiliar with Day of the Tentacle... i made the mistake of doing an image search... people have really gone off the deep end with their fantasies. :P
[09:30] <lewellyn> i guess it's truly tentacle porn :P
[09:32] Nick change: madmoose_ -> madmoose
[09:42] <Strangerke|work> lewellyn: yeah, japanese guys are creative...
[09:44] <Strangerke|work> I still remember the surprise the first time I saw UrotsukidMji / Legend of the overfiend
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[09:57] <lewellyn> Strangerke|work: no, these were not japanese-looking. i'd link them, but nsfw and it'd scar members of this channel. :P
[09:58] <fuzzie> so link them privately ;p
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[09:58] <lewellyn> hahahaha
[09:58] <fuzzie> I'm on a train, so I can check if people arond me scream or not
[10:00] <lewellyn> hahahahahahaha
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[10:05] <fuzzie> having image searched myself, now I want to make wool ones
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[10:10] <Strangerke|work> There are japanese drawings of the 18th century showing tentacle sex, if you're into art O:^)
[10:10] <Strangerke|work> Japanese really have a problem with tentacles and with huge lizards
[10:11] <Strangerke|work> Now I wonder if there's a monster which is a huge lizard *with* tentacles. That would be cool.
[10:13] <Strangerke|work> Damn. It *IS* cool. http://www.magieck.nl/content/images/paragraaf_791402_Mighty%20Froghemoth.jpg
[10:16] <Strangerke|work> And a quote from DrMcCoy... http://cdn.meme.li/instances/250x250/52998322.jpg
[10:16] <lewellyn> Strangerke|work: i just found, on accident, what i think is a pokemon tentacle porn. with a japanese signature on the image. so all is right in the world, eh? :P
[10:18] <Strangerke|work> :D
[10:18] <DrMcCoy> o_O O_o
[10:22] <DrMcCoy> fuzzie: if I weren't that damn useless at knitting and crotchetting (yeah, tried both), I'd make myself a whole army of purple tentacles
[10:23] <fuzzie> I wonder if I can be bothered to try
[10:23] <DrMcCoy> those look neat indeed http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/201/6/f/Day_of_the_tentacle_by_giuggiu.jpg
[10:25] <Strangerke|work> http://www.dx.com/p/pannovo-hand-made-cute-octopus-outdoor-thermal-windproof-caddice-balaclava-helmet-cap-hats-275349#.VAWa-8WSzAM
[10:26] <Strangerke|work> If the head size was a bit larger, I'd buy one
[10:26] <Strangerke|work> I'm sure the traffic jams would be more funny with that on my head
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[11:27] <edheldil__> fuzzie: these days you can try with colored hair bands
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[14:06] <t0by> somaen, sorry - I can't seemingly reproduce the bug you encountered in J.u.l.i.a.: if I get this right, in the first scene of the intro the starry-fieldy background should look weird, right? It does not look any different with the Windows version I am running side by side (except that it's slow as molasses, especially on my not-so-humble 3GB machine, but you know that)
[14:10] <somaen> IIRC there was also a bug with the asserting out there?
[14:10] <somaen> Which I seem to remember was because you introduced hard limits that didn't fall back, but instead errored out.
[14:11] <t0by> No, yeah, that was wrong
[14:11] <t0by> There was a couple asserts in the wrong place
[14:12] <t0by> Which at least turned out to be in thwe wrong place once you disabled fallback.
[14:12] <somaen> Are the fallback thresholds sane btw?
[14:12] <t0by> But, you mentioned that when using fallback the particle system looked weird
[14:12] <t0by> is it correct?
[14:14] <t0by> [16:12:40] <somaen> Are the fallback thresholds sane btw? ===> I ran some very rough benchmarks back then, they can certainly be improved upon (I'm not even sure one constant fits all machines and especially all archs) but I prefer to think about fine tuning those when everything else works.
[14:15] <somaen> I can't remember, but is the fallback basically my old system? I.e. one big rect?
[14:15] <somaen> or is it fullscreen?
[14:16] <t0by> one giant rect that is as big as the cliprect
[14:16] <somaen> So, launching retail gives me: Assertion failed: (_cleanMe.size() == 0), function getOptimized, file engines/wintermute/base/gfx/osystem/dirty_rect_container.cpp, line 129.
[14:16] <t0by> so basically fullscreen
[14:16] <t0by> [16:16:45] <somaen> So, launching retail gives me: Assertion failed: (_cleanMe.size() == 0), function getOptimized, file engines/wintermute/base/gfx/osystem/dirty_rect_container.cpp, line 129. ===> I know, my mistake.
[14:17] <t0by> I will (and am) taking care of those
[14:17] <t0by> the asserts are simply wrong.
[14:17] <t0by> just disable them.
[14:17] <t0by> I'm more interested about reproducing the graphical glitch, though; if you could tell me how and were you got that that would be great.
[14:18] Nick change: Gentle` -> Gentle
[14:18] <somaen> And the breakage is easily repeatable
[14:18] <somaen> So, you do see the star fields in the demo right?
[14:18] <t0by> You mean in th first scene, the star trek tng like background
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[14:19] <t0by> when the computer explains stuff
[14:19] <t0by> right?
[14:19] <somaen> yes
[14:19] <t0by> If so, yup.
[14:19] <somaen> Once I get the warnings of WARNING: Too many rects, disabling dirty rects for this frame.!
[14:19] <somaen> The stars start to draw lines, leaving dirt on the screen.
[14:19] <t0by> Huh.
[14:19] <somaen> I suspect that the fallbacking doesn't make for a full cleanup.
[14:20] <t0by> Visible lines? White lines?
[14:20] <somaen> And apparently it keeps fallbacking
[14:20] <somaen> Well, like ghosting stars.
[14:20] <somaen> The fallback does seem to be triggered a lot too, is it considered every frame, or is the fallback mode kept for a frame or two?
[14:21] <somaen> Because my terminal is flooded with that warning.
[14:21] <t0by> Every frame.
[14:21] <somaen> At what point is the decision made?
[14:21] <t0by> With the current constants it basically starts fallbacking once you have the starfield and the ui and some text.
[14:21] <t0by> It can p[robably be optimized by adding some hysteresis.
[14:22] <somaen> Isn't the total area more important than the amount of rects, as long as there is little or no overlap?
[14:22] <t0by> Last time I checked the actual blitting was taking up a lot of time
[14:23] <somaen> Yeah
[14:23] <t0by> thing is
[14:23] <t0by> I can't seemingly reproduce.
[14:23] <t0by> What backend are you using?
[14:23] <somaen> So, if the stars are actually a rect each, then it makes sense to allow a huge amount of rects, to avoid blitting the black space
[14:24] <somaen> Assertion failed: (ret.size() <= RETURN_HARD_LIMIT), function getOptimized, file engines/wintermute/base/gfx/osystem/dirty_rect_container.cpp, line 156.
[14:24] <t0by> [16:24:03] <somaen> So, if the stars are actually a rect each, then it makes sense to allow a huge amount of rects, to avoid blitting the black space <=== Agreed.
[14:24] <somaen> That one too
[14:24] <somaen> OpenGL backend
[14:24] <t0by> (Ignore all assert()s, I spend an hour cursing myself yesterday)
[14:25] <t0by> Well, let me try that.
[14:25] <somaen> Same thing happens in the SDL-backend (default)
[14:25] <t0by> tell me to go to hell, but do you please have a screenshot?
[14:26] <somaen> Hrm
[14:26] <t0by> I just want to rule out gamma/calibration/monitor
[14:26] <t0by> because I am really not seeing that
[14:26] <t0by> but then I don't have a good eye and my monitor is awful
[14:26] <somaen> nothing like that
[14:28] <t0by> Just so that we're on the same page: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6848151/julia.png
[14:29] <t0by> Is that different from what you are seeing?
[14:30] <t0by> geez.
[14:30] <somaen> you've got mail.
[14:30] <t0by> just saw that.
[14:30] <t0by> gcc/os x, right?
[14:30] <t0by> To the VM, Robin.
[14:31] <somaen> Yes, but also full version of the game
[14:31] <t0by> Eh, could be that.
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[14:31] <t0by> I'm dropping a line to Mnemonic
[14:31] <somaen> This is meta's game though
[14:31] <t0by> er
[14:32] <t0by> I mean
[14:32] <t0by> metra.
[14:32] <t0by> *meta.
[14:32] <somaen> Let me see, if it's the same in the demo
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[16:07] <t0by> I want to tell everybody a classic t0by joke: after taking one nap too many waiting for Eclipse to stop thrashing, t0by buys a 4GB RAM module on eBay. The module arrives, it doesn't work.
[16:07] <t0by> Isn't it hilarious?
[16:09] <DrMcCoy> Verily so
[16:09] <fuzzie> yes.
[16:10] <Begasus> https://bitbucket.org/Begasus/haikuports_games/commits/2067ca379d32be5d33e7259d4dee4028208c11ee
[16:10] <Begasus> patch to make Haiku compile the scummvmtools atm
[16:11] <DrMcCoy> yay
[16:12] <Begasus> well there is a working one atm for download, but this one needs a patch probably for the future :)
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[16:13] <t0by> yay indeed. haiku deserves some love.
[16:13] <Begasus> ;)
[16:14] <Begasus> well ... if it would get some more attention maybe there could be some more devs for it also :) (hence progress) :)
[16:15] <DrMcCoy> Know the feeling
[16:16] <Begasus> well in any case ... this patch would allow to build the tools (even for gcc2) :)
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[16:18] <Begasus> https://bitbucket.org/haikuports/haikuports/commits/6d28d89536e791f2b5493d3747790b9c24e9006a ... a recipe for Haiku to build the latest scummvm version(s) :)
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[16:34] <WooShell> meow =^.^=
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[22:02] <GitHub3> [scummvm] lordhoto closed pull request #492: GUI: replace "savegame" by "saved game". (master...misc) http://git.io/wUxV-g
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[22:02] <GitHub36> [scummvm] lordhoto pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/9rqtbQ
[22:02] <GitHub36> scummvm/master 9d885bc Ben Castricum: GUI: s/savegame/saved game/...
[22:02] <GitHub36> scummvm/master cf8e28c Ben Castricum: CLI: change "savegames" into "saved games", same as in GUI
[22:02] <GitHub36> scummvm/master 03b8800 Johannes Schickel: Merge pull request #492 from BenCastricum/misc...
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[23:37] <GitHub23> [scummvm] lordhoto pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/jAzR4Q
[23:37] <GitHub23> scummvm/master 8e1bc16 Johannes Schickel: README: savegame -> saved game
[23:37] <GitHub23> scummvm/master 4917945 Johannes Schickel: README: savestate -> saved game
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[00:00] --- Wed Sep 3 2014